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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ted C 01/21/2013 14:12
In the context of Isaiah 45, God is saying in verses 5 and 6 that He is separate from His creation. Verses 16 and 17, along with verses 20 through 23, explain this by contrasting idols and graven images (created things) to the One True God (the creator). Note that this agrees also with the message of Romans 1:23-25, which teaches that men, "...changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things...exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator..."

Isaiah 45:5,6; 16,17; 20-23 KJV "I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other....They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever....Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, You who have escaped from the nations. They have no knowledge, Who carry the wood of their carved image, And pray to a god that cannot save. Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath."
TRWord 01/21/2013 20:44
And what is Jesus saying here?

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


And here?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
TRWord 01/22/2013 06:12
Catholica

The new age is a modern day movement formed by a group of ultra-rich individuals who believe that they can circumvent the Lord’s prophesy:

Matt. 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

You are convinced that the belief in “the oneness of God” is a new age belief but that is a misconception.

Example:

Since it was founded in 1898 by Father Paul Wattson, the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement have been dedicated to the pursuit of At-one-ment __ the unity of all people with God and one another.

They do this by ministering to the poor, the homeless, the addicted and all those in need of healing; by striving to bring together people of all faiths; and by reaching out world wide in the spirit of Father Paul who made his own the prayer of Jesus,
“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17:21)

https://www.atonementfriars.org
Ted C 02/07/2013 23:53
TRWord, sorry for so long between replies. My wife and I just had our fourth child in the middle of January. Everything else has gotten put on hold! He's doing great, and so is my wife. We're all very excited to have little Ben be part of the family.

OK, "I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you," (John 14:20) and, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21)

I believe these verses speak about a delineation between God and His creation just as much as the previous set of verses do. First off, if God and His creation were one, the verses would have needed to be worded, "I am my Father, and ye are me, and I am you," as well as, "They are one, as thou, Father, art me, and I am you, and they also are us."

It's interesting, however, that Jesus actually does use this precise type of language in a couple of places and only about the Father and Himself.

John 8:57-59 KJV "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

The reason they had wanted to stone Jesus was because He was making a direct claim to being God, literally. When Jesus said this, He was giving Himself the very name of God which God had told Moses in Exodus.

Exodus 3:13,14 KJV "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you."

Jesus made the exact same claim during His trial. Here are the accounts from Mark and Luke.

Mark 14:61b-64 KJV "....Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death."

Luke 22:70-71 KJV "Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth."

Jesus didn't only claim to be God by referring to Himself as the "I Am", He also was fond of referring to Himself as the "Son of Man" (Matthew 8:20;9:6;10:23; etc. throughout the gospels.) Jesus claimed both deity as God and manhood as a human being, and He claimed them separately.

Jesus claiming of His being both God and man lines up with John 1, which speaks of Jesus in terms of Him being both 100% God and 100% man concurrently. John 1 also makes a distinction between these two things.

John 1:1-3;14 KJV "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Note that if God and His creation were one, then John 1 would have said, "the Word was already flesh" or simply "the Word was flesh". Instead it says, "And the Word was made flesh..."

The word in the Greek for the phrase "was made" is "ginomai" (Strong's G1096) and means, "to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being." So Jesus, who was with God and who is God, came into existence as a man. God became a man.

Why did God have to become a man to redeem mankind? There are a few reasons. First off, God had given authority over the earth to mankind it the garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:26 KJV "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

When man fell and became a member of the kingdom of darkness, he ceded that authority to the most powerful created being in the kingdom of darkness, Satan.

John 8:42-44 KJV "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

(Note that the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" [Revelation 1:1 KJV] speaks of the devil in terms of his being, "the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan" [Revelation 20:2 KJV], indicating that the serpent which God punished for beguiling the woman in Genesis 3:13,14 was none other than the Devil himself, the one of whom Jesus says in John 8:44, "there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar".)

Jesus speaks of His own triumph over darkness in John 12.

John 12:28-33 KJV "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."

Paul explain the details of Jesus's triumph in Romans.

Romans 5:8-17 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

Regarding authority in the earth, Paul goes on to say later on in Romans:

Romans 8:18-23 KJV "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

So I beleive that as a man Jesus won back dominion for men in the Kingdom of God on earth.

I believe another reason Jesus had to be both 100% God and 100% man concurrently is because of the "Lex Talionis" (the Law of Retaliation) in the Mosaic Law.

Exodus 21:23-25 KJV "And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

(Note that we must take Jesus saying in Matthew 5:38-44 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.... But I say unto you, Love your enemies..." together with Jesus saying in Matthew 4:17 to "repent" and saying in John 8:11 to "sin no more". The logical takeaway is that we are to forgive those who wrong us, but not to actively enable sin to take place as a result of our own action or inaction in any situation where we have direct responsibility and influence.)

If Jesus had been just a man, or if He was God and we were God - in other words, if Jesus was in essence the same type of being that we are - then His blood could have only paid for one other individual person. Instead, I believe that it took the Blood of God Himself to pay for the sins of all mankind upon the cross.

Jesus Himself indicated that He had to die for men's sins.

Matthew 16:21 KJV "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day."

John 6:53-56 KJV "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

Matthew 26:26-28 KJV "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Hebrews agrees with what Jesus said. It also expounds on the principles behind the idea that He had to be both 100% man and 100% God concurrently:

Hebrews 9:11-14;19-28 KJV "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?....For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

So the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of the rest of Scripture is that He died for all of our sins.

John 3:16 KJV "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Isaiah 59:2 KJV "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Romans 7:24-8:4 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

So there is a distinction between God and man. And in Christ, us who are faraway have been brought near.

Ephesians 2:13-18 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."
TRWord 02/08/2013 15:20
Ted I know your joy in receiving little Ben as part of your family, and I’m glad that your wife is doing well. God bless you all!
This also warms my heart during my time of sorry. We just lost our son Chris jr three month ago at the tender age of 38. He left us six grand children to cherish but there is still a large empty space were he used to be.

Wow you wrote a book!

Got to take this offline and study it.
Davidwayne Lackey 02/08/2013 18:23
Chris I'm very sorry to hear about your son. I am in prayer for you and your family. We may be at opposite ends Theologically most of the time but I too am a Dad. If my 37 year old Daughter were to pass I would be devastated along with my 5 Grandchildren. I weep for you Chris. May The Lord give you the peace that passes all understanding.
Ray 02/09/2013 14:26
Yes, very sorry to hear about Chris jr. God bless your family.

He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. Is 61
Ted C 02/09/2013 19:28
Chris,

My sincerest condolences for you and your family. My grandmother lived to be 96 years old, and outlived her husband, six of her siblings and both of her own children. When we buried my father she said that no parent should ever have to bury a child, and I'll never forget the way she said it.

My wife and I experienced a miscarriage in 2010, and though we never got to see our child we had lost a member of our family and experienced all of the associated pain. I was surprised to learn a couple years later that the pain never really goes away, either. But when we're reminded, we frame our memories in light of all of the good and of our hopes. And we know we will see our child some day in heaven.

Blessings on you and your son's friends and family,

Ted
TRWord 02/10/2013 05:43
Ted

You believe that God is separate from His creation and even though these two verses are clearly saying otherwise you allegiance is so overwhelmingly to what you believe “the creed” you try to explain away the words of Christ, by saying: if God and His creation were one, the verses would have needed to be worded, "I am my Father, and ye are me, and I am you," as well as, "They are one, as thou, Father, art me, and I am you, and they also are us."

When Christ said:

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

Isn’t He saying that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and He is in us.

If the Father is in Him and He is in us then the Father is in us and this statement doesn’t to be reworded in anyway to say what it has already clearly said.

The problem is, you have not accepted that God is a Spirit.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

Notice what Paul is saying here:

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11)

Paul is saying that if “the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead” dwells in us then He that raised Jesus from the dead will quicken our mortal bodies.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

How can “the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead” dwells in us and be separate from us?

The Jews could not accept that Jesus and the Father are one and when He said it, they took up stones to stone Him.

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (John 10:31)

And you Ted cannot accept that the Father, the Son and us are One.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)

THIS IS THE TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST:

After telling us that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

Jesus commanded us to ideals that are so high, we must ask ourselves, HOW DO WE LIVE UP TO THEM?

Commands such as turn the other cheek, love your enemies and bless them that curse us.

Then He commanded us with what seems impossible:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

HOW CAN WE BE PERFECT AS OUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN?

Only if we are One with Him and therefore the same as Him _ Spirit.

This is the revelation of the teaching, that we must accept (through faith,) the prerequisite to our entering the kingdom of heaven. This the conversation that Jesus had with the Pharisee Nicodemus.

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. (John 3:1-21)

Jesus introduces this new concept, “a man must be born again,” as the prerequisite to enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3KJV)

Jesus further explains “being born again” as being born of the Spirit.

Unless a man accept (through faith) the Spirit that dwells in him, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5KJV)

Jesus reveals that there are two states of being.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6KJV)

Below Paul is paraphrasing (John 3:6)

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (Romans 8:5KJV)

Jesus reveals that this new state of being defies common understanding.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8KJV)

Below Paul is paraphrasing (John 3:8)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14KJV)

Jesus reveals God’s gift of His Spirit to the world through His son as the gift of everlasting life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16KJV)

Below Paul is paraphrasing John (3:16)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11KJV)

God sent His Son into the world to reveal the TRUTH and to demonstrate the resurrection so those that believe can be saved (through faith) by His example.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17KJV)

Below Paul is paraphrasing (John 3:17)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2KJV)

Jesus explains if we do not accept this revelation (through faith) we are condemning ourselves to the second death.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18KJV)

Unless a man accepts (through faith) “the third part of his being,” the Spirit of God; “THE ONLY EVERLASTING PART OF HIS BEING,” then he is condemning himself to the second death.

Why?

Because if we do not accept that the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in us, he that raised up Christ from the dead can not quicken our mortal bodies.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15KJV)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (Revelation 2:11KJV)
TRWord 02/10/2013 06:07
Thanks David and Ted

I appreciate your thoughts. I have learn to trust the will God and even though this has been the toughest challenge we’ve had to face, it has had brought the family closer, and in retrospect I can see how the spirit has prepared us for the event. Our son vacationed with us just a couple months before His passing leaving us the memories that we now must hold on to.
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