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January 10 - ADVANCE-Battle Formation
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Calico
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02/14/2010 14:34 |
oh, ANDRE! :-)
I tell you, my friend, I AM SO THANKFUL that you have opened this dialogue with the rest of us!!!!
And I want to make note of the language within that sentence: I did not say "I am so thankful that 'your kind' has opened a dialogue with 'our kind.'" I specifically included "you" with "us." So, to clarify, there is no "us" and "them" mentality in my heart and mind. I only think in terms of "us," and you, brother, are part of us, and we of you.
When Brian posted the Advance: Battle Formation month-end talk, I found myself greatly resonating with the ethos he spoke of. The directness of his words, as well as the enthusiasm with which he spoke, have greatly propelled me forward even further into the DAB community. Even so, as the music as playing at the end of the talke, just as you also write of I too had the "but..." moment, in my heart. I have been thinking on it and dwelling in prayer on it for the last two weeks. Indeed, specifically, I was thinking of you, Andre, brother. Two weeks back, as I finished the listening I couldn't help but wonder in my mind if YOU were thinking about Brian's discussion too. So, again, I give great thanks for your thread here, and your asking "since my theology is so different from most of the members of this forum, how a person from a non-Catholic viewpoint understands these verses, in particular... ('one faith')."
It's quite something, isn't it? As I listened to Brian's talk, I pondered how a perspective on unity would impact the DAB community, with all of it's diversity. "One faith" is such a deep, robust, expansive thing.
So, speaking as a brother here, of what I have come to experience in my own spiritual walk, "faith" is not here "that which we believe," but is intead the act of "believing." It is the relational trust by which we relationally engage the "one Lord." It seems that all of this must start with Jesus Christ.
In my life it has come down not to "the knowing of the data" (even if that data is the Bible, authority of tradition, reason, and experience), but it has instead come to "the trusting of the personhood of Jesus." It is the belief (trust, faith) in Him that informs all of those other things in my life (ie., Jesus' mentorship of me [the Spirit's indwelling of me] informs my understanding of the Bible, authority of tradition, reason, and experience).
I see the exemplification of this in the Bible. I see the way that God's gift of faith unto Abraham gave him an unhindered, clearly-focused relationship with God - long before any wide-spread denominational institutions existed. This is as by the way shown here: "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God)." (Romans 4:3; The Amplified Bible). God offers Himself to Abraham, and Abraham trusts Him, and that trust opens a way to understand the "how-to" of living.
"One faith" is the same belief (trust). Historically, among church division, belief has been either the belief of the same doctrines (the enduring, transferrable principles for "how to live"), or belief has been belief of "the same nature in the heart" (that is, the innerbeing of Christ that is spiritually within us [Spirit]). The word may be taken in either sense, but perhaps there isn't any reason why faith/belief/trust should not include both things, or be used in the widest sense. If faith (trust) is so enacted upon, it means that Christians should be united because we hold the same great doctrines ("majoring on the majors, and minoring on the minors"); and, also, because we have the same confidence in Jesus in our hearts. We hold the same trust in Christ alone, as distinguished from Judaism, Paganism, Mohammedanism, Deism; and we should, therefore, be one. We have the same trust in Christ, as a living, practical principle - and we should, therefore, be one.
You and I may differ, Andre, my brother (as do many others differ here in the DAB community), in other attachments; in temperament; in pursuit; in professions in life; and yes, even in denomination. But in the personal experiences that I have had with you (for example, the chatroom session you had with Helga on marriage, which I was witness to and was also part of, this past Friday night :-) ), I believe we have a common faith, and we should be ONE. If I consider Catholicism as a "denomination," then I stand to the side of it, but if I consider catholic to mean "united universally with those who have one faith," then I stand with ALL of you here. As best as the Spirit can direct me, I choose to stand WITH you, Andre - and all of these other DABbers.
Love you, Andre; and again, I am so deeply thankful for your opening this dialogue. I had thought to post this sort of engagment myself, and you beat me to it. :-)
Praying with ALL of you...
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Calico
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02/14/2010 16:28 |
I was reminded of a wonderful hymn, too; particularly, the third and fourth verses...
The Church's One Foundation
By Samuel Sebastian Wesley, 1866
The church's one Foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord;
She is his new creation
By water and the Word:
From heav'n he came and sought her
To be his holy bride;
With his own blood he bought her,
And for her life he died.
Elect from ev'ry nation,
Yet one o'er all the earth,
Her charter of salvation
One Lord, one faith, one birth;
One holy Name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food.
And to one hope she presses,
With ev'ry grace endued.
Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed,
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.
The church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain and cherish
Is with her to the end;
Though there be those that hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against or foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail.
'Mid toil and tribulation,
And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation
Of peace for evermore;
Till with the vision glorious
Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great church victorious
Shall be the church at rest.
Yet she on earth hath union
With the God the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won:
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we,
Like them, the meek and lowly,
On high may dwell with thee.
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Craig from Illinois
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02/14/2010 22:53 |
Thanks Calico...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIvCO11uBtE
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Catholica
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02/17/2010 08:37 |
Hi everyone, thanks for all of your responses so far.
Ryan, if I understand what you are saying, it is that you see both contradictory doctrines and not loving each other, and you believe that not loving each other is more of a problem than contradictory doctrines because we never know all doctrines until we discover them in heaven. I hope I haven't paraphrased that too badly.
But what exactly do you think is meant by 'one faith' here?
Brian, thank you for replying, I know that you are a very busy person and I really appreciate your ministry and what God is accomplishing through your efforts. I can see how some might interpret this as 'one faith in Jesus'. But it seems to me that he is referring to something tangible rather than intangible:
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Verse 4 seems to refer to mystical things (all being in the one body and one Spirit, and "the" one hope)
Verse 5-6 seem to refer to tangible things that can be counted: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.
In particular, "one baptism". I have heard that some claim there are as many as 7 different "baptisms" in the Bible. I personally believe in two different experiences that can be considered "baptisms", that is, baptism by water and baptism in the spirit, and I think most Christians agree with these "two" baptisms. But these are concepts of baptism, not really a "baptism". "One baptism" (I believe) can only mean that we can only be "baptized one time" if we believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. And I think the traditional belief is that this is in reference to baptism by water, which is what Jesus demonstrated to us through his own baptism in John 3 and told the Church to do in Matthew 28.
Similarly, the early Church knew the correct gospel, they were given truth right from the mouth of Jesus, they taught no error and handed on no error. They "didn't make this stuff up" so to speak. Therefore, while there was "one faith" it also seems that people are called to "have faith". Two different meanings of "faith". To Paul, believing the whole gospel was "having the faith" while putting trust in Jesus was "having faith".. Just like in Jude, you know, where he tells us to contend for "the faith". It seems that faith is a tangible set of beliefs if we are to be able to contend for them.
I totally "got" your message about working together in unity. And you are right, you didn't in the podcast say that theology "divides" us, (going back and listening) "holding on to our theology so deeply that even Christ himself couldn't convince us otherwise". But yet understanding what God has revealed is so important to knowing God deeply. True we can be in unity in charity toward each other and love each other (in a way) like Christ and thus be "united" so as to fight against the devil. But that is such an imperfect unity, and such an imperfect love that it almost seems more like a body that is duct-taped together rather than one unified whole.
I have nothing against duct-tape, but its not the kind of unity that Jesus wanted. In kindness we are united but in truth we are confused, and that is so unlike being one unified body. I think there is something more tangible than saying "we are one body" and sort of not beating our own body up by saying to each other "you are worthless, you are only a toenail" ;-) of course Jesus has placed each of us here on Earth and has a plan for each one of us. But it seems to me that he wants a deep, true unity, in belief and in spirit. If the physical body of Jesus had been as divided theologically as the mystical body is, the devil might have tricked him when he used the Bible to say "God will not allow you to be dashed on a stone". But Jesus, being God, knew the truth of what God was saying, and thus resisted this trickery.
So I guess what I'm saying is that, unless we honestly pursue truth and test each other in charity and with humility, we are always going to be divided and be rather confused whether or not we have the "one faith" that God tells us to "contend for". And (not trying to water down things) it can be a matter of even our salvation. If a person's belief system teaches them that "this is how you are saved" when really its "that", then its a problem. It seems hard to believe that God would hold this over us at the time of judgment, but I really believe that God expects us to seek his truth throughout our lives, with a docile heart, like the Bereans did.
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Ryan Fitz
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02/17/2010 14:18 |
It seemed from your paraphrase, and maybe from your original post, that I take false doctrines lightly. I want to assure you I do not take them lightly. But if we could strive for unity instead of division, if we could love instead of seperate, contradicting doctrines would not cause such a tear in Gods church. For example when Peter and Paul disagreed about whether we should keep jewish customs or not in acts, they did not divide and become seperate churchs. They held a meeting and discussed it respectfully, and made a decision based on the scriptures. we could learn alot from that.
So, What is this one faith we are connected in. That faith is faith in Jesus Christ. He is our center, and whoever believes in him and knows him is part of our church and of our faith.
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Ryan Fitz
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02/17/2010 14:19 |
*in the first line I meant from my original post :)
sorry
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Helga
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03/08/2010 22:14 |
Brian thank your for the month end talk. It spoke right into my heart. It made me realize how Jesus works deep in each one of our hearts individually and it is up to us to learn from it or to tear every word apart. I love how in our so lonely times we can advance the kingdom, if we choose to. Now when I feel so lonely I am encouraged by the thought that this is the time when Jesus digs deep into my heart and soul to teach me something. To teach something to me, not anyone else but me. It is not about us but Jesus in us.
God bless you and may Jesus open up your spiritual eyes every day so that your teaching and readings which we listen to will be filled with the light of Jesus.
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Bibleman
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03/24/2010 09:49 |
wars will emerge of course, and they have (courtesy of me in one forum you have visited...).
nonetheless, we strive for christian unity. Everyone has disagreements, but at the end of the day, no matter what I or anyone else posts, we are not hateful as christians of others. Zealous for example I may be, but Jesus is expressed as love personified with his actions, and therefore I as a CHRISTian, follow that.
Strive for unity - amen.
Grace and Peace be with you ALL in our LORD Jesus Christ.
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Calico
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03/24/2010 16:11 |
"wars will emerge of course, and they have (courtesy of me in one forum you have visited...)."
Which forum was that, James?
:-)
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Bibleman
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03/25/2010 08:23 |
the "God said WHAT?! forum...
o_O
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