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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/14/2011 00:02 |
Those strange characters in the definition of
The Wicked one were my attempt to put in some of the original Greek words, obviously not supported by this web site.
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Ted C
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03/14/2011 00:16 |
TR, I still want clear answers to the following questions. If you're purposely not answering them, I'll have to assume you're trying to be at least a little deceptive in trying to woo people towards your way of thinking, because you're not coming straight out and sharing what you believe. You would appear to be trying to hide it.
So my questions are.
1. Do you rely on Scriptures other than the Bible? If so, what writings do you consider to be authoritative and inspired?
2. Are you saying men actually commit evil but only because they believe in good and evil? Or are you saying that there really is no evil because it doesn't exist, regardless of appearances?
And now I have a third question.
3. Why would the Lord's prayer mention evil if it doesn't exist? I mean, what you're proposing is a bit of a conundrum. If the only evil which exists is belief in the existence of evil, because evil doesn't actually exist, then how could believing in good and evil itself be evil?
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Ted C
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03/14/2011 00:25 |
There is a bit of confusion on the exact meaning of Matthew 6:13 because the tense of the word for evil, Poneros, can be taken as either neutral (evil) or as masculine (evil one).
John Calvin, while I don't agree with all of his theology by a long shot, pointed out there isn't really that much of a difference between the two interpretations of the word in the context of the verse.
I personally believe the word and tense were intended to be mean both ways the word can be taken, "evil" and "evil one". That's not to say that all evil is directly the devil's fault. I don't believe that at all. It's rather to say that in the realm of the kingdom of darkness - of those fallen in rebellion to God - the most powerful finite entity happens to be Lucifer. Call him a symbol, the most glaring example of the problem.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/14/2011 00:42 |
Bibleman,
Thank you for the excellent post!
I appreciate your acknowledging points of agreement
and your comments regarding progressive revelation and other religions,
ideas you acknowledged as important to me,
and which you then used to make your own point.
Though we may not come to the same conclusion on this particular topic,
it certainly has made me think,
and represents what genuine, respectful dialogue is all about.
God bless you, brother.
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Bibleman
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03/14/2011 09:48 |
You are welcome!
God bless you, as well.
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TRWord
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03/14/2011 14:49 |
Davidwayne wrote;
“When I asked who Jesus was talking to in the desert you did not give a direct answer to that question but side stepped it but going into something about parables.”
Davidwayne is unable to accept the Truth of the omnipresence of God he is convinced in the existence of a presence (an evil one) other than God. This belief is a violation of the Truth. This is the original sin, Adam’s transgression.
Ted C wrote;
“Why would the Lord's prayer mention evil if it doesn't exist? I mean, what you're proposing is a bit of a conundrum. If the only evil which exists is belief in the existence of evil, because evil doesn't actually exist, then how could believing in good and evil itself be evil?”
Ted is convinced in the existence of evil. This is the consequence of the original sin.
==============================================
We are spiritual beings created in the image of Our Father and therefore subject to what we believe. What we believe is not without consequence this is why Our loving Father admonished Adam against the belief in good and evil.
Our inability to accept the Truth or understand the nature of sin is now our problem, and like the Pharisee we believe that sin is transgression against the law, even though Paul has reminded us that sin existed long before Moses.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14KJV)
Sin is man’s separation from God due to a violation of the Truth.
Jesus labored to reveal a new understanding which he said must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20KJV)
He taught;
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:43-44KJV)
Even they who despitefully use us, and persecute us, we must know that the spirit of God dwell in them. Under this new understanding Jesus has revealed God as an omnipresent spirit, and He has commanded that we must never violate this truth. The belief in anything other than God is sin against the Holy spirit. He taught that all transgressions against the law shall be forgiven but sin against the Holy spirit cannot be because it separates us from God.
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: (Mark 3:28-29KJV)
Belief in the Oneness of God is belief in the Holy spirit; “the Holiness (whole-li-ness) of God,” and the belief in anything other than God is sin against the Holy spirit.
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Ted C
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03/14/2011 15:05 |
TR, thank you for actually answering a couple of the questions frankly!
So, transgression and sin are not the same as evil?
How could there be transgression and sin if everything is in essence God? Wouldn't the part of "God" which is man, going against the part of "God" which is God, be - ultimately - God going against himself?
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Lanny Carlson
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03/14/2011 16:58 |
Ted,
I don't know, but it seems you and TRW are speaking two different languages!
You and I seem to be on the same wavelength,
even if our conclusions are different,
in that we recognize the distinction between evil, which is real,
and an "evil one," who may or may not be real.
TRW, when he keeps saying that the problem is
"the belief in good and evil,"
confuses the issue unnecessarily,
as he goes on to identify the problem as belief in
"the existence of a presence (an evil one) other than God."
The way he uses the word "evil," therefore, is very confusing,
because he uses "evil" and "evil one" synonymously,
even though he doesn't MEAN them synonymously,
and that's the mistake and the source of confusion.
Ultimately, I think all of us would agree that sin is evil,
but the point I THINK TRW is making is that belief in an evil one
may put the blame on an external being,
passing the buck rather than recognizing our own culpability
and turning to the ONLY One who is truly in control.
I think, from our discussion thus far, we would all agree that this is POSSIBLE,
that focusing too much attention on an "evil one," real or not, CAN lead us astray.
TRW seems to be saying that it WILL lead us astray.
(At least I believe I am understanding TRW's point of view,
- if not, I have no idea what TRW is trying to say!).
If so, then the real point of contention here seems to be whether
belief in an "evil one" NECESSARILY leads us astray.
I think TRW is saying that it does.
I don't think it has to, if we recognize - as we have ALL been saying -
that even if the devil, Satan, the evil one, whatever, does exist,
he/she/it has NO divine power, and has no more control than we allow him to have.
And the Spirit is what empowers us to resist temptation,
WHATEVER its source may be,
something I think again ALL of us believe.
I hope this is helpful,
because I don't know what else to say.
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Ted C
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03/14/2011 18:30 |
I like the C.S. Lewis quote in the intro to his book "The Screwtape Letters": "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."
From what I can tell of the parables and teachings in the Bible, that quote is right on.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/14/2011 20:36 |
Ted,
That's a very good quote.
I would just have one observation.
I'm assuming that those who have an excessive interest would be the magicians
and those who don't believe are materialist.
While I understand and appreciate what he says,
it may be an oversimplification.
One doesn't have to be a materialist - I'm certainly not -
to disbelieve in the existence of devils.
One can be spiritual and believe in the reality of God, in other words,
and not believe in the objective reality of devils.
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