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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion

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Mrs.C 04/23/2011 20:12
Well said, Tom.

I have to admit I get so frustrated. Can you imagine if someone met you at the church door and condescendingly said, "I love you. But I hate your sin." Yeah? Do you hate your own sin?


I think my husband said it best. He said the reason some heterosexual people amplify and disdain what in their mind is a most awful sin is that this is one they have never been tempted with. Gluttony? Oh, that's different. We even see morbidly obese televangelists. That's okay, even though the Bible is clear gluttony is a deadly sin. Lying? We have all done it. No biggie. Adultery? Give people a break, right? They are tempted. But being attracted to someone of the same gender? It makes us uncomfortable. We have not been tempted in that way so it must be worse than the other sins, right?

I am constantly being put into the position to defend my love for my son. I wonder...what would make you comfortable? For me to never mention that he is gay? It would surely make my life easier to be quiet about it. Or maybe, to tell him how bad he is? He has heard that all his life. You think that will change how he was made? No, but it will make him feel alienated, unworthy of God's love. Maybe it would make us feel more comfortable if something worse happened.

Let's look into the mirror. Can it be our pride that makes us like Pharisees? I am so glad I am not like that gay person. I am so happy I am not such a horrid sinner as that.

Well...Craig, first of all, I am not really sure I am welcome in the forums. I am pretty sure my son would not be. But thanks for the kind words. And as for truth and being blinded, the truth is that the sin of pride does abound. The pride that says, I would never do that because I have never been tempted to do that. I prayed when I saw another thread. Just please know, that I was just as condemning as all of you are. Worse. Life has a way of making you look your prejudices in the face. I know you can look up a couple of quotes and try to condemn me and try to point to the sins of gays. All the while, perhaps we should all ask God what the Bible is saying to us, rather than thinking, Oh, this verse is for her or him. Ask which ones are for you.
John T 04/23/2011 21:14
Hi Mrs. C. Very thoughtful posts - I've really had to read through this all slowly and try to figure out how to look at it all.

I guess the way I would relate to it is by looking at my own sins. I have struggled with lust and pornography and that has led to lying. So should I proudly say that I'm a lying adulterer at heart? That's really what I would be in God's eyes - if I look at a woman to lust after he, I commit adultery in my heart. I would not say that proudly. Instead, I've been trying and working to seek to the Lord and my wife and other accountability partners and see freedom through Christ. I would instead say, "By God's grace, I am seeking freedom from lust and pornography!"

So to compare, if a person struggles with homosexual sin, it would not make sense to proudly boast of the sin, but rather to say, "By God's grace, I am seeking freedom from it." His sin is no different than mine - we are all fallen men and need to seek the Lord for the freedom he promises. That's my struggle. When people say "I'm gay" - they say it as if it's not something that they can seek freedom from. That would be like me saying "I'm a lier and adulterer at heart!" at leaving it at that. Am I supposed to believe that I'm born that way that I cannot change that? That's not what my Bible teaches me. Through Christ I can be free indeed, and so can he.

I don't want this to be harsh or mean, I'm just trying to relate and put it into perspective.
Craig from Illinois 04/23/2011 21:27
Mrs. C,

Looking in the mirror... yes, I hate my own sin. So does God. Since I hate my sin and I know God hates my sin too, I confess and repent my sin. Jesus forgives, I am presentable before God. (Justification) But now something else is happening. All kinds of "socially acceptable sins" (like the ones you called out) are coming to the surface. I am eagerly confessing besetting sins (anger, worry, pride, lust, covetousness, laziness, judgementalism, etc. etc). I'm aware of more sin my life now than I did before becoming a Believer.

I'm not going to patronize you with sympathic words for the pain you are enduring. I am sorry that you've been hurt and continue to be hurt. Nobody likes getting hurt especially in the way that you are. I have two sons. I would defend them to the end too.

I just want to know if you've changed your mind that homosexuality is a sin or not. I think I am confused on that point. It seems to me that the "gay issue" hits a roadblock when someone claims that it is not a sin. Then it becomes an issue of relativism. I'm seeing it in your examples of "never been tempted with" paragraph. Don't get me wrong; you're right on with the Pharisee comment. But in the attempt to avoid being Pharisees, does all theology go out the window?

Can we start with the basics. Does sin alienate us from God?

Thanks for the conversation,

Craig
Mrs.C 04/24/2011 08:21
Tell you what. You get to know a gay person. I mean really have conversations. Maybe I should qualify that by saying just listen. Don't interrupt. Don't interject any opinions. Just listen. Only then can you have some inkling of whether this person chose to be sinful, or if they were just born different.

As a mom of my dearly beloved son, loved by God without a doubt, I know this. He was born different. We were not born with a lie on our lips (but we are born sinners). Craig, you were not born lusting after pornography. That probably only happened after you got a little taste of it. It being gay a sin? Did either God make a gay person that way or allow him to be born that way? You decide. But only after you talk to the gay person at length. It's easy to judge when you don't truly understand. Similar to the adage that the best parents are the ones who don't have children.

Here is what happens. We express our disdain for gay people. They know they are not wanted in church. They need God. They want and seek God, just like all people. Where will they go to worship? Or, did God mess around with them and make them into some horrible monsters who are not even worthy of God's love? We reject them and as a result many people do not hear about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. That is the travesty. And we are at fault.
dynoweb 04/24/2011 08:41
"Lest no man boast" are the words that go through my head as I read this forum thread. In Romans it's clear that we are saved because of what Jesus has done for us not what we have done. It doesn't matter how long we've been Christians we are not holy. The minute we think we are, we are wrong. We have sins of omission that God hasn't even revealed to us let along sins of our acts. We are sinners redeemed by his blood, any different than that and we are not in-line with the word.
Craig from Illinois 04/24/2011 09:51
Mrs. C,

I gladly lay down my desire to continue this argument. I think you came into this discussion for another reason besides the old tired debates. I have two sons, Caleb (4) and Corban (2 weeks). The one thing I know for a fact that we share in common is the unconditional love for our son(s).

The love of God, the power of Christ and the counsel of the Holy Spirit is a deep mystery to me.

I hope you find grace among me and the rest of this community. I love this place too much to soil it with an argument when what really is needed is love.

Peace Mrs. C,

Craig
Calico 04/24/2011 13:24
Hello all,

Firstly, it would seem that some clarification is in order on all fronts. We all seem to be using words that sound and are spelled the same, but of which perhaps each of us places a different meaning upon. Or perhaps, we are assuming/expecting that the other person(s) know how we are intending to use the word. Just for purpose of thinking-on: what do each of us mean by using the word "homosexual?" Or what do each of us mean by using the term "sin?" I am asking for the sake of biblical clarity, ie. "actuality." I am not asking for a person's relativistic perspective, ie. "opinion." (No one need actually write out their understanding of their biblical meaning, though one might feel free to do so if one wishes to).

Secondly, Glenna, dear sister, I pray that I am able to convey my posture toward you positioned as "wanting dialog amidst an emotionally-laden situation," and hope to state the following via such a posture:

If I may point out and ask the question, too, that as much as "the church" and "Christians" may have failed in the generality of the way of how to specifically approach and welcome homosexual/gay/lesbian/trans-gendered/bisexual/nymphomania-hypersexuals/etc., perhaps some points posited in your 04/24/2011 08:21 response are also too broad and overly critical of a true Christian community?

- "Here is what happens." It does? Always? With all Christians?

- "We express our disdain for gay people." We do? Any one of us, at all times?

- "They know they are not wanted in church." They know this? They know that they are not wanted? And you are you certain that they know this? I hope to convey that this does not seem to be the case with the gathering of followers of Christ with whom I attend.

- "They need God. They want and seek God, just like all people." Agreed.

- "We reject them and as a result many people do not hear about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. That is the travesty. And we are at fault." Christians always reject "them?" (it must be pointed out here that, within Christianity and of those who have a profession of faith in Christ, there really is no "us" or "them" - there is only "us," which would include all those who struggle with whatever certain specific things). Do supposedly rejected people REALLY have no experience of Christ, grace, and Christian community? Are ALL Christians REALLY responsible for this sort of outcome?

Such statements seem to broad, too generalized, to describe the true apprentice of Christ. There seems to be in those words a criticism that lumps-in those same long-for/hoped-for Christians you wish for (loving and gracious ones whom you seem to hope your son might meet and engage with) with the legalistic, negative, blindly-judging ones, of whom we might all cringe at meeting.

I wonder if, up to this point in the thread, we have moreso been distracted by discussing "perceived caricatures" of each position, and less so the reality of the true Christian life (though many here on this thread have spoken true, gracious, wonderful things). For anyone on this thread who might bring preconceived characterizations of Christian homosexuals/non-Christian homosexuals/Christian heterosexuals/non-Christian heterosexuals, it is of little help to honest, open, loving dialog. Amen?

For my personal part in the thread, I hope to encourage you, Glenna, to have a good dialog with Craig; whom I count as a loving Christian brother and of whom I sense no judgement in his tone/posture. I believe he has been asking questions in the same "wanting dialog amidst an emotionally-laden situation" posture. And for the sake of the thread, and the sake of helping to convey an expression of a loving, accepting community, the questions he's presented seem to be valid for him to have asked. Perhaps a response from you to his questions can help us all track with "how to live-out Christ" unto one another, as well as unto many who might silently read along with the thread.

Praying with you all,

Tom
Mrs.C 04/24/2011 15:32
Tom, you pointed out some truths. I made general statements which are representative of my experiences and the experiences of my son and other gay people.

As for continuing a dialog with Craig, he does not want to soil this community with any more controversial dialog. An interesting choice of words but probably only too indicative of how he truly feels.

Again, I was once very young like you, and I felt much the same way as you. I raised my children to trust in Jesus. I am glad they still do, despite so many hurdles our family has had to overcome.

I love the DAB and have listened faithfully for four years. I am thankful for a giant of a God whose love surpasses all understanding. I know he hates sin. I am a sinner. I know I can never live up to the holiness that he demands. That's why he made a way back to himself through his son, Jesus.
Marcie in MO 04/24/2011 18:04
Mrs. C,

I have just been reading through these posts to catch up. I struggle with this topic very much myself and therefore won't get in the debate one way or the other. I do want to point out that I think you misunderstood what Craig said. He didn't want the conversation to turn into an argument. There is much controversial dialog that goes on within these forums and I know Craig, as well as most here, welcome the debates, learn from one another and accept the different opinions with love. Please know that his heart is good, even if his opinion may be different than yours and I believe the same of your heart.

Grace and peace to you.
Marcie
Kelley 04/25/2011 21:12
Wow I'm coming in late as well. I have steadfastly stood up for the issue of respect for ALL seeking people, we ALL come to Him from where we are, with all our baggage, the things we were born with and the things we aquired. I remember my dad telling me he was concerned about me when I was a very small child, because I would go up to ANY man, literally, and "flirt". I'm talking like 3 and 4 years old. That was not a learned behavior. It was a natural bent. A natural bent I am having to move past in order to be fully yeilded to God. I came to God broken. Dragging my sin and my past and failures and the damage done to me and the damage I have done.... in a heap I lay those at his feet and say, "help me make sense of all this? what is true and right? what must I leave? where can I follow better?" Being gay is no different then being like me. Or like Craig. Or like you for that matter. What is in your heap, mom? Ya know? And as for Craig, he has loved me like a brother and told me strait like a friend. I trust him. He means no harm to you or your son. I think you might be reading into him with some prejudices of your own. Is that possible?
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