|
|
Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
| |
Kelley
|
04/25/2011 22:06 |
One thing I would like to add is something that has been in my heart a lot is the difference between hurt and harm. That difference has been a part of my own struggles these last couple of months. Loving Christianity in the classical sense might sometimes speak a word that hurts, but it will never harm. I have had the truth spoken to me before in each of those ways. Often the truth hurts. But lack of honesty, or fear of public opinion, or seeking to appease... that harms. I have seen Christians use "truth" to cause harm. We all have. When it is wielded like a club of judgement, instead of the simple humble expression of what we have found to be true spoken for the benefit of the other, extended like a hand held out to steady the toppling one. Craig is not a Bible thumper, judgement wielder, or Christian self appointed truth militia. He's a man, with his own story to tell, who understands love, but also values truth because to speak less would bring harm. There is no judgement in that.
|
| |
Mrs.C
|
04/26/2011 06:02 |
I'm up early and reading these posts. Yes, I do have baggage, but let me say, when I speak of my son, I am not talking about a homosexual "act." He is not just a sex act. He is a living, breathing person, part of a community of probably 15% of the world's population of people like himself. He is not a stereotype, nor am I. I have exhibited stereotypical judgment against some of you here at this forum, and I apologize.
I thought about telling you guys how, before my son told us about his being gay, he cried all night, told us he was horrible, begged us to go to counseling (which we sent him, wondering what was wrong.) I didn't tell you about the inexperienced counselor telling him him he should tell someone he was gay. I didn't tell you that he told a friend, who announced "CG IS A FAG!" across the cafeteria at high school during lunch. I didn't tell you about the tough boy who beat the hell out of my son in the hall at school while teachers turned their heads. I didn't tell you about the group of thugs who showed up at Starbucks when my son was there with his friends (not fags, to use their term, all straight friends of both genders) demanding, WHERE'S THE FAG? I didn't tell you how his friends took the beating for him and fought back for him. I didn't tell you about my son's car getting keyed or our house getting egged. I didn't mention that our own church shunned us. No, none of that.
So, I will make a deal with you guys. I love DAB. I had started to think I would have to stop. I hardly ever go to the forums for this very reason. It is safer just to listen to Brian and not get into any kind of controversy. I won't back down when it comes to defending my son and others like him. I won't. If you can love me and accept me as a parent who loves her son, who knows he was born the way he is, and if you can understand that you will not change that, then I will understand that I cannot change your feelings, attitudes and beliefs, either.
Kelly, and Marcy, thanks for your posts.
|
| |
Craig from Illinois
|
04/26/2011 08:05 |
I can do that deal with you Mrs. C. Even though the specifics of your pain were not mentioned before, I knew that you must have endured pain. That's why I wanted to drop the argument and turn this thread into a loving, peaceful thread.
Yes, I do feel that I was unfairly categorized, and I accept your apology. Thanks for your grace. As you read, I have friends here who know my story and/or know my personality in my writings. They are not exactly correct in their assessments because I am growing in love and grace. I have a judgmental and "bible-thumping past". But, I'm in a process too. Because of my story I come here with humility. But the old nature still shows up when I become too confident in myself and not confident in Christ.
In essence, all Brian does is read the Bible and provide a multitude of ways for us listeners to connect as a family. I try my best to be "sticky" (in a good way) for the connectivity of the family. There are times when I am in conversation that my own opinions get in the way. But I do try to be open and learn from ALL the experiences of the family.
Thanks for being "sticky" too in your last reply. I know you better for it!
Blessings,
Craig
|
| |
Nana99
|
04/26/2011 08:21 |
Mrs. C,
I admire your courage. I refrained from joining the discussion because I knew there would be heated arguments and it’s just not my nature to argue with anyone:-) But having seen you fighting alone, I could not in my good conscience keep my silence. I actually agree with most of what you say. I realise I am in the minority here, but I decided to take a risk and add my two cents.
But before I proceed any further, let me be clear. I am not trying to incite a heated argument. I love each and every one of you in this thread, and I respect your views. And I know all of you mean well.
I am someone who spent a lot of time with lesbians, gays and transgendered people. The church I attended in the UK was an established Anglican church which happened to have quite a few gay priests, elders and attendants. That church had a tenant which happened to be a church for LGBT people. I didn’t plan for it to happen (I just went to the nearest church!), but I felt led to attend services of both churches and consequently made many good friends.
I heard so many personal stories on how they tried to change their sexual orientation, even married a person of the opposite sex in a slim hope of fitting into a mould, inevitably failed, and finally came to accept a notion that God loved them just as they were. Every single one of them had a heartbreaking story to tell, and they were some of the strongest believers I had ever met. Their love for Christ was such that even though most churches had rejected them, they couldn’t stop seeking for a place of worship.
I don’t claim to know all the challenges they are faced with, but Mrs. C, I think you are right in saying that really knowing them personally gives you an insight. After hearing so many similarly devastating stories, and knowing how sincere and faith-filled they are, you get a sense that they didn’t choose to be born that way, and if they could have helped it, they would have been the first ones to do whatever it is to be done. And to them, being a homosexual Christian is literally a matter of life or death. They took a stand knowing full well what to come, and it’s not to be taken lightly.
I did a little study on this issue, so my views are not solely based on what I observed in my limited social circles. I am reluctant to go into details for the reason stated above, but you may get a general idea:-).
I believe DAB represents a wide variety of views. With so many members, I hope I am not alone in thinking in this way. In fact, I would even call it healthier for “opposing views” to be represented without a fear of being called “heretical.” (not that anyone is actually calling anyone else that way:-))
We have our differences but we can love one another. Jesus died for each one of us.
I might also add that I prayed and prayed before posting this. I wrote most of the content last night, but didn’t post it immediately because I wanted to be sure. But reading Mrs. C’s latest post prompted me to go ahead. We cannot let our fellow DABers feel isolated when someone else actually feels the same way.
My heart would break if any of my beloved friends here (I mean, really really good friends who encouraged me when I was having a tough time) decided to “disown” me because I have different views. But I would still stand before God and speak my heart:-).
That’s all I have to say on this issue and I respectfully and peacefully step back and let others talk on....
Love and peace,
Nana
|
| |
Kelley
|
04/26/2011 10:59 |
It still seems so strange to me that either of you would feel you could be 'disowned' because of this. Mrs. C. my heart breaks for the uglyness your son has experienced. I would defend him too. Sheesh. Why are people so awful? And Nana, you are and always will be loved, I look forward to every conversation I have with you. I think part of the differences we have, is that you are seeing sin as a dirty word. I see it as a broken and painful word. A wound. Whether it came at birth like mine, or like Mrs. C's son, or whether we picked it up a long the way, God doesn't say no to be mean or to be hateful. He says no, this will hurt you, and others too. Nana I know you know my story, and how even recently I have had to give up my heart, and who I loved, to follow God in a way I could extricate from my own sin. I can say I was born this way. But I have been reborn, and I have given myself to God, and my task is to follow, even if the way leads to an altar where my very heart is laid there. These are not easy words for anyone to hear. Most of us have something that it feels like to give to God is to give our very identity. We are all the same. It doesn't matter what that thing is. "The man went away sorrowful because he had much wealth"...... Jesus meets us all at this altar place. To avoid it is not to follow. That someone can experience hatefullness over these issues blows my mind. It is a tender and powerful place with God. It is where our anointing comes. Where we lay our Isaac down. Mrs. C. Your son would be loved here. Like anyone coming. It's not the first time the community has embraced someone who was gay, or the first time someone who was gay made a profound impact on all of us. But our issues are the same. We all have to grow past everything we have known and walk with Him.
|
| |
Calico
|
04/26/2011 14:51 |
Hello all,
What is meant by this terming "homosexuals are born that way?" I am asking those who've used these words for clarity regarding the phraseology; for the sake of my own understanding. What does one mean by saying it?
Asking with genuine openness,
Tom
|
| |
Teressa
|
04/26/2011 15:58 |
First I have to say that I am a firm believer that we are not to judge other people by what God might reveal to us as sin but hasn't yet showed another person. God is the only righteous judge. Man judges by appearance, but God judges the heart. There could be any number of reasons a person might be or appear to be doing something that goes against the Word of God as each of us knows it, but only God knows the heart and circumstances of that person.
Mrs. C did not say whatever it is her son is feeling/doing is being done by choice. After having skimmed thru the posts here, concentrating mostly on Mrs. C's post I see that she has stated several times that her son was born this way. I reminded of a Christian program (kind of like 60 minutes or 20/20) I saw several years ago on this subject. The program caught my eye because, at the time, someone in my church had a child that was born with both female and male body parts. In that program there were individuals that had been born with both male and female body parts who later, as young men and women, had surgery to remove the extra part(s) they were born with that weren't fully functioning and didn't fit their hormonal makeup and the sex they felt they actually were.
The program wasn't just about being born with extra body parts. The doctors on the show also talked about hormonal imbalances and chemical imbalances of the brain that some people are born with (or can develop) that can cause them to act or feel differently than their body parts suggest they should. There were both tests and either natural supplements or prescription drugs available to correct the imbalances.
There were also others on the program that said they had chosen to be "homosexual" for different reasons. I can't remember them all, but one of the men on the program said he grew up thinking he was female. He was dressed as a girl and treated like a girl from just a toddler. He was raised without any male role models in his life, doing things little girls would do. His biological mother left his abusive father to protect her son. She changed her own identity and raised her son as a daughter in a house shared by her two sisters. He was painfully shy as a child and very sheltered by these women in their attempts to protest him. He grew up very confused.
The bottom line of the program was that each of the people sharing their story had either a physicial or psychological reason for being either born with or turning to that lifestyle....but, after either diagnosed or finding their identity in the Lord Jesus Christ, they all changed and gave glory to God.
Mrs. C, has your son ever been tested for hormonal/chemical imbalance?
|
| |
Kelley
|
04/26/2011 16:16 |
The problem I am seeing is that we are ALL born with a natural bent to whatever sin. There is proof obese people are born prone to obesity, and alcoholic people are born prone to alcoholism, violence and anti social personality disorder can be traced to the way neurons fire in the brain, I was born not gay, but definately prone to sexual abuse and sexual sin. I have to over come every single day things "I was born to do." I would still expect in a Christian community to be regarded with love as a child of God, while I find my way, and while I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. It is an ongoing process for all of us. I think judgement comes in when we excuse our own sin and point out the sin of others. In a strange way this is getting reversed back on Christiandom, where we excuse one sin, and point out the flaw of judgement. We are all equal. We all need each other. We all have spiritual "birth defects" we must follow Him through. Or we can ALL just stand paralyzed and helpless thinking the way we were born is how we must be and everyone will just have to understand us. I don't choose to live that way. I think I can be more the how I came into the world.
|
| |
Kelley
|
04/26/2011 16:25 |
I also think it is important to point out the difference between behavior and oreintation. A gay man who is not practicing homosexuality is not guilty and not commiting a sin. To be who he is is not the sin. I am not sinning when I choose to follow the guidelines of scripture for my own sexuality, irregardless of how I feel or what I "want to do." I might always have this bent, but I don't always have to practice the outcome of sin. I can choose. For myself I have chosen if I must stay single to keep from sin, I will do it. I am hoping it doesn't come to that, but I will do whatever it takes, even if that means never having another romance, never having a husband, never being held or beloved or special. This isn't a small thing. It's not small to anyone, no matter what their orientation. It is grave and loaded. It is an altar. Do we only give the things that do not matter?
|
| |
Mrs.C
|
04/26/2011 17:19 |
Just arrived home from work and wanted to post. I was hesitant to open the forum, not knowing what to expect. Let me say, I do believe my son was born gay because from his earliest moments of being able to talk and interact, he chose feminine things. He wanted to go to the home living center rather than play with trucks. He wanted to sing karaoke rather than play softball, and to sing Shania Twain songs. He wanted to play with dolls. Now, we, as good Christian parents who had read everything James Dobson had written prayed that this bent would go away. We enrolled him in every type of sport, which he hated. He was always artistic, into decorating the house or moving furniture around from an early age. Trust me, we did not encourage these behaviors, and in themselves do not mean a person is gay. However, as young parents we believed that gay people made choices and were deviant. We believed they were raised without fathers or with weak fathers. We believed it was a choice.
When our son did tell us he was gay, trust me, it was hard to take. In a way, it was like the death of a person who thought you knew. It was hard. We told our pastor. He was so loving and kind. He told us that our son was still our son, and to storm the gates of heaven. Then a few weeks later, he accepted a church in another state and moved away. The members of our church were not so loving, as I mentioned before. Anyhow, storm the gates we did. You can imagine the tears and the thoughts going through our minds. We had very stereotypical views of gays, being hypersexual, flaming deviants who had a thousand sex partners. We prayed so hard. First you pray, God, please change him. Then you get mad, because after all, doesn't the guy who wrote Purpose Driven Life say that God created everybody as they are for a reason? So why? If God didn't make our son the way he is, then he certainly allowed it. So my prayer was, God change our son. Make him "normal." Don't let him be gay. But if you did make him that way, and if you don't want to change him then change me. Well, God changed me. I did lots of research. I talked to people. I think ignorance was my worst enemy before because I was afraid of what I was unfamiliar with. I never had even known a gay person, and now here we were living with one. I talked to parents of gay children (not young children, of course.) I listened to their stories. I cried. We cried. We stayed on our knees. Then slowly we realized that God loves our son. Can God change him? Yes. But he has not. Did our son ask God not to let him be gay? For years he prayed that. And he will tell you that he has always known it from his first remembrance. He didn't know what was different about himself, and he certainly did not express it in sexual terms because he didn't even know such terms. But he knew he was different. And that is what I mean by he was born gay.
Dear Teressa, no our son has not been tested for harmonal imbalance. I would imagine that if there were a "cure" for being gay it would have already be on the market.
Nana, I love you.
Kelley, I love your heart.
Everyone, thank you for hearing my comments. Don't pity me. Everyone has struggles. And I will say that I am no longer crying that my son is gay. Instead, I have accepted him and I love him and I love his partner. He is now 26 years old and a fine young man. He recently purchased his first starter home and I am enjoying helping them fix it up.
So, I am not going to omit any conversations about my son if I come back to the forums. I won't shun the forums as I have in the past, and I want you to know my heart. My heart is for Jesus, to whom I am so thankful. Thank you for your saving Grace, dear Lord. And bless every person here, in your name I pray. Amen.
|
(page
1
2
3
4
5)
|
