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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Faith
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06/07/2011 07:52 |
Andre, that made me laugh so hard! I haven't seen that commercial until now but it appropriately describes my sentiments. :D
As a side note.....TOM!!! THERE'S TOM!!!! =)
OK so I typed this one in a word document before posting it so I can’t lose it this time. ;)
Andre the New Age perspective seems to be very prevalent in my high school, especially with the twist of many kids wanting to mix and match religions so they can concoct their own faith, which is something I find disturbing and difficult. It makes witnessing to them even harder because they think that having faith in something is just something you make up to help yourself get through life, if that makes sense, so they make it up for themselves.
I wondered if you knew anything about modern-day Quakers, because I have a dear friend who is a Quaker but by the way he talks about his faith it seems very New-Agey. They are very focused on “the inner light” and finding the deity inside themselves, and have the classic opinion of “Jesus was just a great prophet” and reject his divinity. Your discussion of New Agers reminded me of him, so that’s why I wondered if they were kind of a part of that category or not?
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Ted C
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06/07/2011 14:11 |
New Age and atheism both seem to fall into the same logic fallacy and they come out of it with different conclusions. The fallacy is, "Argument to Logic" and it goes something like this:
Because one argument that has been offered up on behalf of a theory is false, therefore all arguments on it's behalf are false and the theory is invalid.
Members of the New Age and atheist camps will point to widely different, mutually-exclusive views of God and both assume that because several of the views cannot be true at the same time, therefore none is correct.
Atheists see the mutually exclusive views of God and assume that there cannot be a God and we must explain all phenomenon using experiential observation and gradualism. The upshot of this is that much of modern theoretical science is built on a philosophically-biased logic flaw.
New Agers, on the other hand, see the widely different views of God and assume that none of them is correct as presented because none of them is complete; all of the views contain truth but like blind men surrounding an elephants it's incorrect to say that, "an elephant is small and short with little tuft of hair at the end" (the tail), or, "an elephant is a big round stump with huge round toenails around half of the bottom" (the leg), etc. As a pastor at my local Presbyterian church pointed out, this view appears to have deep wisdom on the face of it, but if you look closer the view is actually incredibly arrogant. What it's saying is in effect that, "truth is unknowable, and no one has the truth and is able to see the big picture except for me."
I've seen professing Christians fall into both sides of this logic fallacy. Some liberal clergy believe Christianity is not literal at all but is simply and only an allegory meant to comfort people and help us understand the world around us. Some of the emergent leaders believe that there is truth in all faith traditions and that all points towards a god who is ultimately unknowable in this life because we can't wrap our heads around her.
To a lesser degree the New Age and atheist camps also fall into the logic flaw of "Naturalistic Fallacy", which means trying to derive values and concepts of right and wrong from looking only at the physical world around us and facts. There is no way to derive statements of value from facts alone because no matter how much you analyze facts, you can only derive other facts from them. You can't apply a value statement to a fact without having defined a value statement ahead of time and applying it to the fact. For example, a benevolent atheist may say, "The golden rule works even for an atheist because all of us want to live and enjoy living and the golden rule leads to this." Well, without having defined values ahead of time, who says living is right? Or wrong? Who says enjoyment is a good thing? Or bad? New Agers tend to do the same thing when they try to draw inspiration and values from the universe and natural world.
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Faith
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06/07/2011 14:19 |
Ted, thanks so much for your insight into this. One of the things you said really stood out to me:
"Some of the emergent leaders believe that there is truth in all faith traditions and that all points towards a god who is ultimately unknowable in this life because we can't wrap our heads around her."
It stood out because there is a little grain of truth in this lie that makes it especially deceptive. God is ultimately unknowable, but that doesn't mean you can't know things about him. That is to say, he's left a lot about himself in the Bible and reveals a lot about himself to us, but that hardly even scratches the surface of all that God is. I'm not a big fan of the argument that God is so unsearchable that we may as well not even search. Part of what fuels my love for Christ is the fact that his character is infinitely deep and I can dig and dig and dig and learn more and more and more but I still won't ever figure him out.
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Ray
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06/07/2011 16:09 |
"their horribly twisted redefinition of the words of scripture"
Can you give some specific examples? I know some are really into a bunch of the stuff that Oprah Winfrey is selling, but I've never had the bandwidth to really dig into it. I should, and it sounds like you have since you are aware of the redefinitions. I may need to understand this one day as I reach out.
Paul makes use of the subversion of other "god" narratives and symbols to get a hearing of the gospel (thanks to Tom/Bruxey). It is our job to do that. We find whatever we can to get a hearing. We don't need to be afraid of challenges that presents. They may be hard, but if we are committed, it will only serve to make us stronger in our faith as we face them. Better to be informed of the nonsense than close our eyes to it is all I'm saying. It ain't goin away and that is why we are here. To stand and serve. Learning the false definitions can be used as a tool to spread the good news.
We are not alone. God is already working on whatever twist is in the way.
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Catholica
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06/07/2011 16:41 |
Hi Ray,
There is a ton of stuff. They have something called the "Metaphysical Bible Dictionary" and another thing called "The Revealing Word".
http://www.truthunity.net/wiki/revealing-word
http://www.truthunity.net/wiki/mbd
Here are some samples:
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sin (rw)
http://wiki.truthunity.net/rw:sin
sin–Missing the mark; that is, falling short of divine perfection. Sin is man's failure to express the attributes of Being–life, love, intelligence, wisdom, and the other God qualities.
Sin (error) is first in mind and is redeemed by a mental process, or by going into the silence. Error is brought into the light of Spirit and then transformed into a constructive force. “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” (Rom. 12:2).
Through the Christ Mind, our sins (wrong thinking) are forgiven or pardoned (erased from consciousness). When we have cast all sin (error thought) out of our mind, our body will be so pure that it cannot come under any supposed law of death or corruption.
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salvation (rw)
http://wiki.truthunity.net/rw:salvation
salvation–The restitution of man to his spiritual birthright; regaining conscious possession of his God-given attributes. It comes as the result of redemption; the change from sin to righteousness. Salvation comes to man as a free gift from God. It embodies a knowledge of God that frees one from all limitations and points the way by which mind and body may be lifted up to the spiritual place of consciousness.
The belief that Jesus in an outer way atoned for our sins is not salvation. Salvation is based solely on an inner overcoming, a change in consciousness. It is a cleansing of the mind, through Christ, from thoughts of evil.
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sacrifice (rw)
http://wiki.truthunity.net/rw:sacrifice
sacrifice–A refining process that is constantly going on in consciousness; the renunciation of old beliefs that seem good for new ideas that are more of the nature of Christ.
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Jesus (rw)
http://wiki.truthunity.net/rw:jesus
Jesus–The Man of Nazareth, son of Mary; the Saviour of mankind according to present-day Christian belief. Metaphysically He is the I AM in man, the self, the directive power, raised to divine understanding and power–the I AM identity. See Jesus Christ.
As the result of lack of conscious connection between the thinking faculty and the fountainhead of existence, humanity had reached a very low state. Then came Jesus of Nazareth, whose mission was to connect the thinker with the true source of thought. Thinking at random had brought man into a deplorable condition, and his salvation depended on his again joining his consciousness to the Christ. Only through that connection could he be brought back into his Edenic state–the church of God.
It is plain to any reasonable, unprejudiced mind that Jesus of Nazareth was a religious reformer with a mission from on high, that He had an insight into those things which are ever mysteries to men immersed in the sense consciousness, and that through His knowledge, and in harmony with His mission, He set into motion spiritual ideas that ever since His ministry have been operative in the world. It is evident to even a cursory reader of His life and teachings that He was the representative of a thoroughly organized plan to help men into a higher realization of God and their relation to Him.
Jesus was keenly conscious of the character of God and His own relationship to Him. He knew God as unlimited love and as ever-present, abundant life; He knew Him as wisdom and supply. He knew God as Father, who is ever ready and willing to supply every need of the human heart. He knew that as Son of God He had access to every blessing, to all the wisdom, love, and help of the Father-Mind. Jesus did not simply believe that the words He spoke were true, He knew that they were true. His words were pregnant with meaning; they were vital, living words, which carried conviction and which produced immediate results.
Jesus is the Way-Shower. He came that we might have life more abundantly; that is, He came to awaken man to the possibilities of his own nature. “As he is . . . so are we in this world (I John 4:17). He came to bear witness to Truth. He used the one true way to the realization of eternal life and the universal consciousness, therefore His influence on the race cannot be measured. It is infinite and eternal.
Jesus, crucifixion of–The Jews were under the dominion of an earth-minded priesthood. They were in a state of ignorance as regards spiritual things and did no thinking for themselves. Hence, they could not recognize or comprehend the things of which Jesus spoke to them. They were looking for a temporal king who would restore to them, by war and conquest, the earthly glory of Solomon. When Jesus tried to teach them of Spirit, of a spiritual idea, the Christ within themselves, “the hope of glory,” (Col. 1:27) that would free them from every bondage of mind, body, and environment, they crucified Him.
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Hopefully, everyone will be sufficiently scared by now.
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Catholica
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06/07/2011 16:46 |
Faith,
I should know more about Quakers because in the not-too-distant past I found that my oldest friend had become a Quaker. It seems that Quakers do have several New Age qualities about their belief, such as searching for some sort of reality within themselves. It doesn't seem that they are very rooted with scripture, and I don't believe that they acknowledge Jesus as God. I wouldn't recommend them, they don't sound Christian from what I have read. I don't know if they even read the Bible at their services; it seems very based upon personal "revelation" and inspiration more than anything.
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Ray
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06/07/2011 19:09 |
Interesting. What a slippery rascal! The evil one really doing the reverse of Paul on us, subversion of the words to fit the corrupted world view, that the authority and happiness of man is the end of all being. I just want to barf.
Thanks, Andre, I think.
Holy Spirit, come! Move in us today.
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Bibleman
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06/10/2011 00:35 |
ooh! fun! Well, faith, I believe just as those high schoolers do that you should choose what to have faith in to make it through life. I believe that is very important since without faith in some religious beliefs, you can't make it through life as you should as a human being.
Having said that, the important thing is that these people should follow the evidence where it leads. Islam seems like a great concept for many, until you really consider how lustfully dishonorable Muhammed was towards women. Having said that, 'abusus non tollit usum' - abuse does not annul proper use. Even if Muhammed himself was a walking bastion of blasphemy, his Allah could still stand as a valid god. Well, except for the fact that Muhammmed is universally considered the prophet of God in Islam, so it would say something about God's character.
I believe the polyglot buffet line religions these people conjure up are an expression of the wild, no - commitment lifestyles of those who practice them. It's foolish, definitely.
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TRWord
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06/10/2011 14:52 |
Andre
I understand your problem so perfectly now. The fact that you could suggest that the Quakers are not Christians makes it so clear that you don’t Him.
The Quakers believe in the presence of God within each of us. This is why they are committed to God and humanitarian causes.
While those who you consider to be Christians were able to kill the natives for the land and were also able to bring human beings from Africa and reduce them to the level of live stock for profit. The Quakers could not do this because of what they believe.
These are of course New Age beliefs to you but this is what Jesus taught and in practice the Quakers are closer to what he taught than all of denominationalism.
In case you don’t know Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
It’s a shame that your understanding is based on contrived doctrine and not on the teaching of Jesus Christ.
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Catholica
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06/11/2011 11:01 |
I didn't know much about Quakers and whether they are New Age, but from what you write, TRWord, it appears that my quick assessment was correct. I had no idea until I looked at what they believed that this was so.
It seems that, in Quakerism, there is room to belief that the Bible is inerrant OR errant, that Jesus is God or not God. These two things would be the foundations of every "Bible-believing Christian"'s belief system.
I suppose there is room for someone who is Christian within the Quaker denomination, but it certainly doesn't, by nature, foster foundational tenets of Christianity, but rather a "believe what you want to believe" mentality. And the idea of personal private revelation seems important to them, but the fact we know that demonic influence is real could lead people to believe some very, very evil things, and they don't have the guiding principles of true doctrine to protect them from that.
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