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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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06/20/2011 10:22 |
I have for months now been trying to find a passage from a book that I read as a young boy, which made an impact on me at that time in my life...
From "A Wizard Of Earthsea" by Ursula K. Le Guin:
The young apprentice of the story, Ged, awakens from his initial struggle with "the shadow," and he is weak and ashamed. The archmage of Roke appears before him, and Ged discusses his wondering at the shadow's power, and the archmage chastises him thusly, saying
“It has no name. You have a great power inborn in you, and you used that power wrongly, to work a spell over which you had no control, not knowing how that spell affects the balance of light and dark, life and death, good and evil. And you were moved to do this by pride and by hate. It is any wonder the result was ruin? You summoned a spirit from the dead, but with it came one of the Powers of unlife. Uncalled it came from a place where there are no names. Evil, it wills to work evil through you. The power you had to call it gives it power over you: you are connected. It is the shadow of your arrogance, the shadow of your ignorance, the shadow you cast.”
Though Le Guin's work is fiction, the conceptualization in the excerpt sounds at least similar to what you're saying, Christopher. I intend no disrespect by citing the author's fiction as saying you are writing something made-up, my intent is not to say that your writing "is fiction" or is personally invalid; I simply saw similarity.
The idea of "giving power to something by naming it" is not an uncommon concept. Psychiatrists use this sort of terminology very often. However, I would state more plainly that we can name something simply to recognize it for what it is. Recognizing evil for what it truly is (which I have previously written my understanding as being "a deprivation of some good that ought to be there;" that it "describes a qualitative state; it is the 'without-God' state, degenerative to whatever depth or degree that state exists in nature or man") does not at all negate one's focus on Christ. We may regard evil in the periphery awareness of our vision even while all the while keeping a front-and-center focus on Christ; "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb. 12:2; KJV).
I can agree with you that we are to be agents of change in this world, as best as the Spirit enables us to be, in whatever circumstances and contexts we are found in. I do not think I can agree with you, regarding the plainly spoken of Adversary and evil from the biblical record, as being non-existent. If it is possible that you subscribe to something similar as what Ted inquired of you ("I think I'm tracking with what your thoughts are. Evil doesn't exist if we look to our Divinity and realize that evil doesn't exist. But evil does exist as the unpleasant or uncomfortable things we create through our thoughts if we do believe in it. As far as Jesus' message, what there is of his message in the Bible is accurate as far as it has been passed down correctly, but the translations we have and the history of people monkeying with the text for selfish reasons has distorted and perverted what we have written down now. Would those be accurate characterizations?"), then I agree that the non-existence of evil will be an EVENTUAL outcome of what God is doing in this world, but that it has NOT YET come about fully.
We can live as disciples of Christ by not partaking in evil. But it is too much of a stretch of reality to say that evil does not exist at all, and if you are offering to us that humanity itself is the sole cause of evil, that would seem to ignore to much biblical fact to the contrary.
Praying with you,
Tom
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Catholica
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06/20/2011 10:29 |
So in Ephesians, Paul is frequently refers to these "heavenly places", and heaven is a real place. I hear that is what you are saying, TRWord.
Earlier you argued against the use of the term "heavenly realms" in Ephesians 6:12 using the following logic:
"You have given us an opportunity to recognize that different versions of the Bible give us very different understandings. I have used the King James as my standard because it's one of the oldest English translations and therefore much less doctoring has been done. Some like the newer translations, they say that they are more accurate because they came from older transcripts. "
Even older than the King James version is the Greek text. The Greek Text uses the word "ep???a?????" which is transliterated "epouranios" in the verse Ephesians 1:3, translated "heavenly places". However the /same exact word/ was used in Ephesians 6:12, which the King James Version was translated "high places". The older text, the Greek text, from which all Bible translations come, uses the same word "epouranios" in both of these verses. The word literally means a "spiritual realm".
If we look at Ephesians 6:12 again,
For we wrestle not against __ flesh and blood but against principalities against powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in high places.
"High places" literally means "spiritual realm" because it uses the Greek word "epouranios" just as Ephesians 1:3 does. Which means that Ephesians 6:12 IS in fact, referring to spiritual wickedness in the spiritual realm, and that means "evil spirits" that are real, 100%.
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Ted C
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06/20/2011 10:33 |
TR, Hebrews 9:15-26 makes it very clear that Jesus was a literal blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions of law breaking and missing the mark. There's no way to spin the passage otherwise:
"For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.' And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Hebrews 10:19-31 makes it equally clear that the punishment for rejecting Christ's sacrifice is eternal torment.
"Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.' And again, 'THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.' It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
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Marcie in MO
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06/20/2011 18:02 |
I'm sorry, TR, but it would be a problem if what you are speaking is the truth and Jesus didn't speak plainly about it. He spoke plainly about everything else.
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TRWord
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06/21/2011 10:13 |
Marcie Wrote:
I'm sorry, TR, but it would be a problem if what you are speaking is the truth and Jesus didn't speak plainly about it. He spoke plainly about everything else.
===========================
Marcie I don’t know how you could make the statement; “He spoke plainly about everything else.”
Jesus always had persons in His midst who with agendas and religious leaders who felt threatened by Him. He very seldom spoke plainly and the few times He did there were negative consequences.
Example when He said;
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus taught in parables and proverbs.
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.
The message of Jesus Christ has not been revealed to all and sundry but only to those who desire it the most.
Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The problem is most of us don’t want the truth badly enough to seek after it, we believe that it
should be hand delivered to us.
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Ray
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06/21/2011 14:26 |
"The whole armor of God is the realization of the omnipotence of God."
Truth, righteousness, readiness, the good news, faith, salvation,
and the word of God somehow is our understanding? The tone
of this is humanism, that the end of all being is the happiness of man.
Coming back to the original post about the Metaphysics Bible Dictionary.
You wrote:
"I do a have a Metaphysics Bible Dictionary in my library and I did use
it during my earlier quest. And having used it I can tell you it's
not some evil book that will lead you down a path of unrighteousness."
From the MBD, from Andre's post:
"Sin (error) is first in mind and is redeemed by a mental process..."
"The belief that Jesus in an outer way atoned for our sins is not
salvation. Salvation is based solely on an inner overcoming, a change
in consciousness. It is a cleansing of the mind, through Christ, from
thoughts of evil."
Chris, there is a very difficult balance here. I agree with some of
the things you teach. But there is something subtle in your words that
I hope you will consider. "Inner overcoming" is all through your teaching
and indeed we need to "stand up." This is very close to the most glorious
thing in all creation.
I have a friend who came close to death in a car accident. He told me
later as he lay on the side of the road he felt his life slipping away,
his body had been shattered. After he realized this, all he could
think about was his sister who he had been struggling with for a long
time. Nothing else had any pull on him. Everything in his life took a
back seat. The one he loved was front an center, primary. The reason
I bring this into the mix is that, to me, it was a powerful expression
of the importance of relationship in the story of our lives.
Ultimately, Jesus wasn't teaching us. Yes, He wants us to rise up,
but really He was making that possible, the only way it is possible.
That is by way of a true relationship with Him. I love the expression
of this in Mark 9:24 "Immediately the father of the boy cried out, "I do
believe! Help my unbelief." Many of us can probably tell stories of
how we have failed in this walk. My disrespect of Andre is a public
demonstration of it. My unbelief, Strong's G570 - apistia - is
unfaithfulness.
We can win all the word games. We can understand great ideas such as God
is omnipotent. We might look really good on paper, but it doesn't
change something, the subtle thing I referred to. Paul wrote about it in
Rom 7:17 "... For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no
ability to do it."
Only walking daily with the love of Jesus inside our heart can he help
our unbelief. Paul described it this way in Gal 2:20 "... I no longer
live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
I don't understand this, it is is who I am.
Not hearing this from you, dude, so I hope you will explore this.
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TRWord
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06/22/2011 06:34 |
Ray
I really think that you should reread my answer to your question because I have no idea what you are talking about here. You said the tone of this is humanism. You seem to have included statements made by Andre which have nothing to do with what I have said and have made them a part of this discussion. And please tell me how the meta physical bible dictionary got into what I replied.
You also said; “Ultimately, Jesus wasn't teaching us.”
Are you denying the scriptures?
Matt. 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Matt. 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
This is the mainstream understanding that all He did was die for our sins.
The mainstream understanding is what we are all taught from Sunday school. What mainstream christians believe is not a mystery it is the common understanding. When we ready for a higher understanding then we turn to the word of the Lord.
Paul said:
1 Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
He also said:
1 Cor. 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul himself voiced concerns that we may be beguiled as Eve was with his simplification of the message.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
You said;
“We can win all the word games. We can understand great ideas such as God is omnipotent. We might look really good on paper, but it doesn't change something, the subtle thing I referred to.”
The truth that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient is not a word game it’s the knowledge that is required to know Him.
For no one can deny that the book begins with God admonishing Adam against the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And that it continues with all that befallen us because of our deception into this belief. Because every sin ever committed, every war and every injustice is due to our involvement in the battle between good and evil. And we can never obey the commandment of our Lord Jesus Christ as long as we continue with this belief.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
The books ends with our redemption when the world is judged and we finally realized the truth of the omnipotence of God.
Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
This is not a word game this is what is written.
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Ray
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06/22/2011 15:56 |
You show deep commitment and discipline, Chris. I'm writing about love, the greatest thing that we will ever know.
John 17:23
I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete
unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved
them even as you have loved me.
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation
of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he
had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand
of the Majesty in heaven.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent
his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the
Son has the Father also.
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not
of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but
born of God.
Love to you all!
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Marcie in MO
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06/22/2011 18:21 |
TR, you keep skirting the issue. If this is the huge mistake that we have made since the Garden of Eden, why would Jesus have not told us so. It seems as if it would have been the next most important thing after loving God and loving one another.
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John T
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06/22/2011 20:32 |
Whoa, whoa, whoa, back the truck up Chris (TR). You don't believe in Eve.
You said:
Paul himself voiced concerns that we may be beguiled as Eve was with his simplification of the message.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
So if Eve was buguiled, then you're saying she existed?
Your theology runs in circles!
John
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