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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Lanny Carlson
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10/24/2011 13:11 |
Christopher,
We often approach things quite differently,
but often come to the same conclusions.
I especially appeciated your comments,
as you reflected on Jesus' words about turning the other cheek:
"We must know that the spirit of God dwells in him even if he doesn’t know this himself and we must know this for his sake as well as our own."
We say we believe in the omnipresence of God,
but then we often put limits on God's presence.
But we need to take to heart the words of Yogi Bhajan:
"If you can't see God in all
you can't see God at all."
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John T
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10/24/2011 14:09 |
Thanks Christopher for the explanation. I would recommend a listen to the free podcasts from John Eldredge for his new book on Christ, Beautiful Outlaw. I've listened to the first part (of many) and it certainly is interesting how religion can interfere with knowning Christ and making Him known!
Lanny, that quote is good, so long as we don't take it to the depth that Shirley McLaine (spelling?) took it and declared that everything is God!
Be blessed,
John
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Catholica
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10/24/2011 15:34 |
If I might jump in, I think that it is a mistake to equate all forms of "presence" when considering God's omnipresence.
For example, I am present to you right now, writing on this forum. You are reading the words I am writing, perhaps hours, days, years later, but yet in a certain way, I am present to you. Hi! How are you doing today? These are just recorded words, but they have entered your psyche, and now I am present with you. Oh and I am probably hundreds if not thousands of miles away from you too.
Another sort of presence is when you interact with someone in the present moment. If I call up my sister, who lives near San Francisco, and I live in Minnesota, I can still be present with her. I can ask her about her day; she can immediately respond. We can discuss the days news. I am more present to her than I am to you, since this forum is like an answering machine. You could write to me, but I may never get your message if I don't come back. But with a phone call, that is a greater presence.
Then there is the presence of being somewhere in person. This is to experience a spiritual being in the fullest sense that we can comprehend as people. At times we just want to be present with our friends in person. Someone plans a meetup somewhere and we decide to go. That is another form of presence.
God is likewise present in different ways. His presence is felt everywhere as the creator of all things. We see his voice mail messages in all of nature, and these things proclaim His glory, and thus He is present in them.
There is a certain presence of Jesus when we pray. We speak to Him and we know He listens. We seek an answer, and sometimes we hear a small voice in our minds, perhaps. We're never quite sure until later if it was God or not, but sometimes we do feel sure. Also we feel his strength in our heart when we pray to be able to do something. In those ways, He is present to us.
Finally, there is the actual, Real presence of God. Jesus, who Is God was REALLY here with us. Someone could reach out and touch Him, and look into his eyes. His touch cured the sick, his saliva and words cured the deaf and dumb man. He made the unclean clean and made the sinner whole. He spilled real blood for us which brought real redemption.
I think one error of the New Age is to not distinguish the different types of presences, perhaps equating all three with the last. Such equating leads to statements such as "if God is omnipresent, then there cannot be Hell". Yet it is not that kind of presence that God would have in Hell. Hell exists because there is a God, not in spite of there being God. People in hell have expressed their desire to separate themselves from the Real presence of God, and have rejected his prayerful presence, and often times deny his expressed presence. But yet in Hell everyone there is fully aware at their loss of God; the very existence of the place proclaims it. In experiencing hunger we realize that food exists. In experiencing cold we are really noticing the lack of heat.
So yes it is true that God is omnipresent. But that doesn't mean that everything is God, or that God is everywhere present in the same way. We know this is true. We know it every time that we commit a sin, that we are not God. Equality with God was not something to be grasped. Adam and Eve wanted to be like god, but they were not God. By trying to act as God they sinned. By stepping outside their boundary, they sinned. God then physically removed them from His Real Presence in the garden of Eden. If God was everywhere equal, then outside the garden was as good as inside. But it was nowhere near that.
Anyway, this might be a little off topic, but it is a thought that I just had. God's peace to you.
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Lanny Carlson
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10/24/2011 16:23 |
John T -
No, there's a world of difference in saying that God is IN everything
and that God IS everything,
the difference between panentheism and pantheism!
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Lanny Carlson
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10/24/2011 17:14 |
Craig,
You raised the question:
"How does believing or not believing in the atonement doctrine change anything in my day to day living? I've been living under the 'Grace' doctrine already. Does 'atonement and grace' look any different than 'love and demonstration' in regards how I perceive life as it comes my way?"
That's a fascinating question, and I've given it a lot of thought,
and will try to answer as best I can from my limited human perspective.
The atonement doctrine
(by which in this discussion I assume you mean
the doctrine of substitutionary atonement or blood sacrifice,
remembering that there are other doctrines of the atonement as well)
focuses on Jesus as Savior,
while the "love and demonstration" doctrine
focuses on Jesus as Lord.
But they aren't mutually exclusive.
Paul recognized that some were using the grace of the cross as an excuse for antinomianism, doing whatever they wanted, even saying "let sin abound that grace might the more abound." Jesus is not only Savior, however, but Lord, moving those who have received his grace to give themselves in obedience.
On the other hand, it is possible to see Jesus as our example and give ourselves in obedience and love to Him as Savior, while forgetting that we also need a Savior,
not necessarily in the sense of a substitute but in the sense of needing his grace to ENABLE us to FOLLOW His example.
Even the Sikhs, the non-Christian tradition with which I most identify,
while recognizing our "divinity" in the sense that the divine dwells within us and within all, recognizes that "GOD is the Doer" and that any good WE do depends upon God.
It's only by God's grace that we are able to do anything, and all the glory belongs not us but to God.
The bottom line is that even if we don't accept the atonement as a blood sacrifice
but as an example, it COST Jesus EVERYTHING to show us the truth of God's love.
And it will cost US everything to follow his example.
That's a LONG answer to a short question
(what else would you expect from me?),
and I'm not sure it even directly answers your question.
But it's a start.
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John T
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10/24/2011 19:17 |
I had never heard of a "Sikh" so I googled it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism
Sounds like a "earn your way to heaven through deeds" based religion, no?
Certainly not Christianity.
Why the fascination with a false religion?
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Bibleman
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10/24/2011 22:18 |
Sikhism is really a fusing of sorts between Islam and Hinduism. Which in itself is frankly miraculous, considering how much hatred and enmity exists in between most muslims and hindus (considering hindus are polytheists and islam is staunchly anti - polytheistic.). But not ALL, I suppose.
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Lanny Carlson
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10/24/2011 23:51 |
I'm a little hesitant to get into a big discussion of Sikhism,
because it's really not the topic of this thread,
and I only mentioned it as almost an aside to make a point about grace.
But I will seek to respond to the comments.
Bibleman,
I'm not a Sikh, so I am no expert.
My impression had been that Sikhism was a reform movement within Hinduism,
rejecting polytheism, the caste system, and the inequality of women.
But the following from a Sikh website,
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/
states that Sikhism isn't a blended religion or a reform movement
but a unique religion in its own right.
"Over twenty million Sikhs follow a revealed, distinct, and unique religion born five centuries ago in the Punjab region of northern India. Between 1469 and 1708, ten Gurus preached a simple message of truth, devotion to God, and universal equality. Often mistaken as a combination of Hinduism and Islam, the Sikh religion can be characterized as a completely independent faith: Sikhism rejects idolatry, the caste system, ritualism, and asceticism. It recognizes the equality between both genders and all religions, prohibits the intake of any intoxicants, and encourages an honest, truthful living. Sikhs have their own holy scripture, Guru Granth Sahib. Written, composed, and compiled by the Sikh Gurus themselves, the Guru Gran th Sahib serves as the ultimate source of spiritual guidance for Sikhs.While the Sikhs hold their Gurus in high reverence, they are not to be worshiped; Sikhs may only worship God."
John T,
as I said, I'm not a Sikh.
But Sikhism is the fifth largest religion in the world
and among the fastest growing;
the Spirit Fest (Sat Nam Fest) which I attended last month
and about which I have written in other threads
was organized in large part by Sikhs;
and I have the highest respect for the Sikhs I know
and for the faith they not only profess but live.
I have said that Spirit Fest was one of the most God-filled events
I have ever experienced, and I have said many times,
"Where else could a retired United Methodist pastor like me
go to a Jewish Retreat Center and join with Sikhs, Jews, Catholics, and others
in praise and worship of the One God?"
I bristle at the label "false religion,"
and certainly don't consider Sikhism to be a false religion.
They worship the One God,
described in some of the writings of their founders:
"There is but One God
He is the Eternal Truth
The Creator, All-Pervading Divine Spirit
Unfearful, Without hate and enmity
Immortal Entity, Unborn, Self-Existent, and
He is realized by His Own Grace.
Meditate upon
Who was True before the Creation
Who was True in the beginning of the Creation
Who is True now, and
O Nanak, Who shall be True for Ever."
"God is Formless, colorless, markless,
He is casteless, classless, creedless;
His form, hue, shape and garb
Cannot be described by any one,
He is the Spirit of Eternity,
Self-Radiant, He shineth in His Splendor.
(http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/introduction/fundamentals-of-sikhism)
They have the highest regard for Christianity
and see Jesus as a great teacher, and one Sikh website says,
"Jesus is one of the most respected and valued spiritual beings in the history of mankind. He gave up his life in order to stand up for the truth and remain strong in his belief and teachings of God."
http://www.realsikhism.com/
Repeating what I said in the earlier post,
"Even the Sikhs, the non-Christian tradition with which I most identify,
while recognizing our "divinity" in the sense that the divine dwells within us and within all, recognizes that "GOD is the Doer" and that any good WE do depends upon God.
It's only by God's grace that we are able to do anything, and all the glory belongs not us but to God."
[So, John T., it's not an "earn your way to heaven" religion!)
Sikhs also have the highest moral and ethical standards,
are guided by the principles of love and peace,
and certainly do not reject Christians
or try to convert Christians to Sikhism.
All weekend, I visibly wore my cross,
and felt nothing but respect from my Sikh friends.
So, John T, how could I NOT have "fascination" for a faith which embodies
so much of what I profess as a Christian,
and embodies it to a degree for beyond what I often do?
Anyway, I don't want to ramble any longer.
You asked me a question, and I've tried to answer it.
But, again, my point in mentioning Sikhs
was that even in this faith, which has no doctrine of sacrificial atonement,
still recognizes the need for grace.
'Nuff said.
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TRWord
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10/25/2011 04:46 |
Ray asked:
“Christopher, I'm curious how the Holy Spirit fits into your religion? Thanks.”
The knowledge of the Holy Ghost is key to our new understanding “the new covenant” but because we have looked to the day of Pentecost instead of the Lord’s teaching for our understanding of the Holy Ghost we have been distracted by the drama of the account.
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (Acts 2:1-3KJV)
And now many of us are expecting some physical manifestation as evidence of the Holy Ghost.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4KJV)
Our God is expressed in three persons as Our Father as the Son and as the Holy Ghost. Our Lord Jesus christ came to reveal all three persons to them that believe.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19KJV)
Jesus said that the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost dwell with us and will be in us.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17KJV)
The knowledge of the Holy Ghost is given by revelation from the Father.
Upon receipt of this revelation Jesus said.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:20KJV)
This is the realization of the oneness of the spirit expressed as the Father, as the Son and as the Holy Ghost which dwell in us.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:23KJV)
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Ray
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10/25/2011 10:15 |
Thanks, Christopher.
Typing words in a forum or email is very limited communication. I am sure we have failed to communicate well in the past because of this. One of the things I've tried to understand about your religion is that there seems to be a focus on our mind in most of your expressions here. Note the words you use in response to my question, "knowledge, understanding, and realization." This seems to be a constant expression with what you write. Agreed?
For example, in the new age thread I asked you why we needed the armor of God and your response was the "whole armor of God is the realization of the omnipotence of God." http://www.dailyaudiobible.com/Forums/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1000028726&page=1
Here I asked about the Holy Spirit for a specific reason and it does not have anything to do with "the drama" found in Acts 2. Your focus seems to be what is inside our brains. It has been my experience that, while helpful, knowledge is a limited aspect in our spiritual lives. I know all sorts of things and they don't bring me life.
There's something much better and you wrote about it, "...I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." What I'm getting at is there seems to be this tone in your writing that "I in you" is about some ideas. Correct?
What do you mean by "knowledge of the Holy Ghost?" You seem to write about the knowledge in Is 11:2, "da`ath - perception, skill, discernment, understanding, wisdom," but leave out a critical aspect. Knowledge is half the picture here. It is combined with "ruwach - the breath of heaven," and without both we see 1 Cor 13, "2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
The truth without love is incomplete. Agreed?
Ephesians 4
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
I'm not saying you are nothing, Christopher. I'm saying I don't understand you. Your writing comes out like half the picture to me and that might be because of the medium.
The keeping of a new list of rules, taught by Jesus, and kept in our heads is what I have understood from you as religious goal. This is not to say that is all you offer. I'm saying it is what I have received from you. Realization is "to be fully aware of." Our knowledge seems so small and self-centered. I believe our part in the Kingdom is much larger.
So, again, what do you mean by "knowledge of the Holy Ghost?"
"these three remain: faith, hope and love."
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