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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Craig from Illinois
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01/28/2012 08:11 |
I'm probably full of crap, but I'm just tired of all the weird attempts to gain the something that is freely given. I think I may have offended most DAB'rs, including you Tammy. Sorry that I had to use your experiences with fasting to spout off about my disbelief. This isn't about you specifically but about the religious practice.
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Tammy
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01/28/2012 11:32 |
I understand. I struggled before we started on this journey with some of what you have said. I didn't want to be manipulative of God and feel like we are doing this to get something out of it. We just felt called by the Holy Spirit to do this. And we are not asking anything specific, other than to work in our lives and our family's lives to bring us closer to God. We do want my daughter to come home, but we understand that it will be in God's timing, not ours. My husband and I have been under spiritual attack, and this is our way to fight. I know God gives all things freely, but I think that he has put us into training, like a soldier or a fighter. I think we are being prepared for battle. God has called me to be a prayer warrior, and this is part of my training. I thought seriously about sharing this with others, too, and whether it would be the right thing. But I felt like God wanted me to give others the opportunity to share this with our family here. Just like when I felt God was calling me to do this, I shared it with my husband, and he joined me in this. I know spiritual pride is a sin, but I don't want the fear of spiritual pride to keep me from doing things that God has called me to do. Each fast is personal. And God has called people to do things. I suppose what we are asking for could be just given to us by God. I think God's heart is touched when people ask him sincerely, and with all their heart. The pharisees fasted, and Jesus fasted too. It's the motive behind the fast that matters. Not all fasts are like the ones that the pharisees did. I agree, some people do fast that way. And if you are tempted to fast for the reason of getting something specific in a certain time period, then it's wrong.
I know that we are supposed to go into a prayer closet to fast. I also know that Hezekiah asked the whole nation to fast at a desperate time when they were under attack. Jesus' fast was written about in the Bible to show us how to fast. And I do think that we shouldn't fast to try to get something specific, unless we are told by the Holy Spirit to do so.
Craig, you can't offend me by telling me your honest concerns. If I was offended by your questions, then I would have to be offended by my own. I do know that God uses our sacrifices to advance His kingdom. He allows us to be part of the battle. Trust me, if I was trying to get something from God, I am long past the stage where I would have given up hope. If I was being demanding, I would have hated God for taking my son, and for allowing my daughter to leave. I would have run after her and found her by now. But we were told to wait. On His timing, on His purpose.
So, I guess what I would say is, let God decide if the fast is real or not. Let Him decide how to use it. And I do think that your heart is in the right place. You hate stuff that is fake. So do I, with a passion, because it keeps people from finding the real Jesus. But just because some things are fake, doesn't mean they all are. I suggest book 7 of The Chronicles of Narnia, "The Last Battle." The dwarfs think they are in an old stable, rather than heaven, because they were fooled once, and don't want to be taken in again.
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Kelley
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01/28/2012 13:30 |
Craig, I like how you are honest and like to see authenticity in things like prayer. Usually I am soooo with you. I know you are inquiring, so I can offer the way I see it, understanding that this isn't an official study, but rather personal experience. Tammy and Paul have deep struggles going on and fasting is a way of simplifying so that we can hear God in our struggle. The Daniel fast is kind of a hybrid fast, in the fact that Daniel and his friends weren't trying to fast, per se, that is simply how they ate. They were tying to refrain from eating in the local way in believing to do so would be dishonoring to God. Now people use that as a way to regain lost health (a worthy endeavor) etc. I think as a fast goes, for spiritual reasons, because it is something new you have to do instead of being simple enough to hear God, I would choose a regular fast if hearing God was my purpose. I have fasted a lot in my life time, both for good reasons and bad. It IS a lot like lent. It is about being still. Not cooking and cleaning up after meals. No shopping and preparing. Just being still. Being simple. Being hungry. Knowing our weakness. Waiting on God. It isn't so we can get what we want, but so that we can hear what he says without rush and clamor. When I fast I think of Jesus words when they ask Him why his disciples don't fast, and in effect He said, "why should they fast, the bridegroom is with them." So when I fast for a reason it tends to be those reasons where I don't feel like God is with me in a sense, I don't know what he is asking of me, His voice to me is obscured. When I need His presence in a deeper clearer way then usual. If I just stop eating but don't stop to listen, the fast is a waste of time. But if I do it as it is meant to be done, it can be a very powerful time of quiet meditative focus on God and an invitation to Him that says "You have my full attention, speak Lord, your servant is listening. You are my food, You are my drink." Like the saying goes "God speaks to the person who is listening." Fasting is a way of carving out time to truly listen.
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Tammy
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01/28/2012 16:30 |
The Daniel fast is more than for gaining lost health, and I do believe it is a way to humble myself before God.
Here's the passage:
1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war.[a] The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
2 At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3 I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.
So this fast is the combination of how Daniel ate in chapter 1 and chapter 10.
And I do agree that it is a way to humble myself before God and to ask for wisdom and understanding. And I like what Kelley said about carving out time to really listen.
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Kelley
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01/28/2012 18:12 |
I did read the passage in Daniel 10. Tom and I have been talking about this thread, both of us have considered the Daniel fast a few times, and are very intrigued. I think Tom is going to address the topic when he gets time, and I'm looking forward to what he will say about it. I have honestly never tried fasting as a form of spiritual warfare and can't address it at all from that perspective, but I would like to to study more about it. I think all of us are agreeing that it isn't just a way to manipulate what we want from God. It goes much much deeper then that. Less wrestling with God in demand that he give what we want and more aligning with God to hear, be, and do what HE wants. All it takes is a decision to fast and you are quickly and rudely awakened to all the ways you are ruled by appetite. Anyway, I appreciate the thread and what has been offered, and even Criag's doubts about the practice because it's made me do a lot of thinking, and I will have to learn about the warfare aspect of fasting now.
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Tammy
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01/29/2012 17:14 |
I totally agree, Kelley! I have fasted before for 1 or 2 days, and this was harder in some ways, because it was a longer period of time, and about halfway through, I was really tempted to give up. When it was 1 or 2 days, I knew it would end soon. But this time, it was 3 weeks. I got tired of eating the same type of stuff. I can see why the Israelites got tired of manna...I wanted chocolate and coffee so badly.
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Helga
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01/29/2012 21:32 |
Tammy I am very proud of you and your husband. It is always good to eat fresh stuff, like Dr Colbert said, "Living Foods". Nothing wrong with it and I hope that you will carry on with this way of eating for a long time. Let this become a daily habit and if you feel like some "dead food" do it but stick to your new way of living. Once the body is healthy, you are able to function far better every day...
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Craig from Illinois
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01/30/2012 07:50 |
OK... so I've been reading these responses. (Thank you for your time and honesty with these replies). I'm not sure that I've learned anything new as far as fasting is concerned, but I have learned where each of you are individually on your intent for fasting and your position on the practice.
Now for my experience. When I received the H.S. there were things in my life that God "fasted" from me. Not the other way around. There were things in my life that no longer had appeal. There were habits and desires that no longer were present. I didn't have to give them up, the desires left me. Anything that left my lifestyle was God removing them from me.
Attempting to create that lifestyle because it looks like what a spiritual person would do is like putting the cart before the horse. Tammy, I can understand from what you described as your reasons for fasting, you saw your diet as unhealthy and you desired a better way. In a real sense, God changed your heart for the way you are eating.
I'm running out of time here this morning. Tell me where I am missing the boat with this line of thinking.
Craig
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Tammy
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01/30/2012 13:15 |
I have experienced how God has taken the desire for certain things from me as he heals and restores me, such as certain TV shows, etc. But a fast is a voluntary giving up of things that are not sinful in themselves, but could become idols for me if I let them. It is a voluntary and a way to humble myself to get closer to God. And I believe all that truly fast are called by God to do so. That is the difference between someone who is trying to get something from God, and someone who is being called to fast for a reason. I think the reason God had me post this is to create this discussion, and to say something to others He might be calling to consider something like this. I didn't fast to better my health. That was a side effect, and a good one.
I am fasting because my 17 year old daughter has been missing since May, and I believe God was calling me to fast and pray. I have struggled spiritually with this. I lost my son to leukemia almost 6 years ago, and have dealt with grief, and the tearing apart of people I love spiritually and emotionally since then. God asked me to fast, pray, and wait. Yesterday, my pastor gave a sermon on how to wait on God. It was exactly what I needed to Beautiful in its simplicity, it told how the word in the passage in Isaiah that is translated "Those who wait upon the Lord will renew their strength" is the same word as " to bind together, as in making a rope" That binding together strengthens us to prepare us for what God is doing in our lives.
That was my answer to my questions, my humbling of myself, and my stepping out in faith. That was what I was seeking. It wasn't about eating, it was about God speaking into my life. Could He have spoken into my life without my fasting? Of course. But He wanted me to dedicate this time to Him. To seek Him wholeheartedly, to reach out for Him in this way. It was done in obedience and to honor Him.
I really appreciate your questions, Craig, and I know you are just trying to understand. I'm not attempting to create a lifestyle. I will probably eat better after this, because I felt better physically. But if I hadn't seen the physical changes, I would have gone straight back to how I ate before. I miss caffeine and meat. I'm adding stuff back a little at a time, and Helga, I am continuing to eat lots of "live food". Much more than I was before. But I believe God has put chocolate on the earth for us to enjoy it, and I intend to! Maybe just not so often!
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Kelley
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01/30/2012 16:19 |
Craig, where you have said that God just naturally removed sinful desires from you, that has not been my experience. We all bring different experiences to the table and different ways that God works in our lives. If I waited to obey till I "felt like it" I would still be deep in sin, I STILL struggle to walk free of some of the things I've been involved with. Just last night I had a terrible go around with all sorts of things conspiring against me. I am tired, and in a lot of physical pain. Inspection is coming up so I am worried and stressed. I completed SCF a few weeks ago and started into the mentorship program only to have one of their guys say that I had been eliminated even though all my lessons were done with thought and effort and honesty, and my mentor complimented me and said I was "great" at my responses to students. The man in question had no reason to eliminate me other then "his discernment" told him so. Which ties in deeply to experiences I have had all my life where it comes to religion and never being "good enough"... so there is hurt and anger on board too.... a fulll load. AND THEN temptation hits hard and strong and available. I WANT to fall. Everything in me is set to fall. To comfort myself in the only ways I have ever known how. So...... do I wait till I feel different? Does the fact that I want to fall mean God isn't ready to remove this from me yet? Or do I just keep doing what I've been practicing doing... saying no to the flesh and yes to God even when it hurts???? Fasting is like that. I'm glad you've had it so easy. But a lot of people don't. They have to lift the spiritual weight and grow strong.
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