|
|
Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
| |
Lost Sheep
|
01/14/2012 11:27 |
Thank you all for your comments. I will say that my friend is the first aggressive atheist I have ever met. I am honestly not sure if he will ever change his mind and I guess that is up to him and God. Most people seem to be more agnostic in my opinion. I think when someone is agnostic it gives you a better starting point for discussion. It’s not like I regularly talk about God mind you. I am after all backslidden, but when I hear someone talking about God or the lack of God I can’t help myself but get into the conversation. I tend to see people creating God to be in their image. How many times have you heard someone say something like “I believe in God and I pray, but I have my own way of going about it.” Well you can read about King David doing the same thing in 2 Samuel 6. Poor Uzzah is an example of what happens when people try and do things their way to a Holy God.
Atheist are different though. They don’t believe in any god. The odd part is they can’t offer any type of alternative for our existence though. My friend Chris is not a stupid person, but when he is telling me about evolution, I tend to think he is dumb, because it makes no sense. To him coming from a primate makes more logical sense than him being created by a supreme being. I think the part that bothers him the most is the supreme part. I don’t think they like to think that there is something bigger and better than man. They will throw some of the things that are in the bible at you. Slavery, paying the father off for raping his daughter, God telling the children of Israel to kill everyone and so forth and then of course they will bring up everything that was ever done in the name of God. The killing of scientist, the crusades, the recent headlines of about Priest ect….
I really think that I may have met Chris more for me than for him. He has forced me to dive deep into my beliefs to answer him. I think in a way I am the right person for him to have encountered though. I think I am pretty logical and I certainly don’t think I know it all and avoid things that go contrary to my opinion. I am not afraid of another point of view being right and proving me wrong, I guess what I am saying is at the end of the day I just want the truth and because I know that the God of the bible does exists I am not worried about my friend proving me wrong because I know that he can’t. Sure, some of the ways I have traditionally looked at things might change, but I know God is always going to be in the picture.
Ray here is the link to the Craig vs. Hitchens debate. It’s over 2 hours long but I really enjoyed watching it. Hitchens doesn’t seem to be a very happy person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJY74yxlH8
|
| |
Pauline
|
01/14/2012 15:23 |
I'm currently reading "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman L Geisler and Frank Turek. So far it's clearly answered many of tho atheist's arguments that I haven't known how to answer.
|
| |
John T
|
01/14/2012 18:01 |
I've heard of a book called "God doesn't believe in Athiests" or something like that by Ray Comfort as well, but haven't read it. I have heard some of his talks, and he's very good.
John
|
| |
Helga
|
01/15/2012 02:40 |
Frank thank you for sharing. I believe God challenges us to grow closer to him wherever we are. I am a believer but when it comes to convince an atheist that there is a God, I suddenly start digging into scripture and literature. It is good because wherever we are in life God has so much wisdom and knowledge to give to us, if we are willing to dig into it.
The latest books I have read "Passages" by Brian and " Has Christianity failed you" by Ravi Zacharias have not given me direct answers to questions an atheist has but they have soften my heart to become more alert of the yearning in everybody's need for God. They have explained that Jesus through his way of living is the only example I need to follow to become free and to experience life.
|
| |
Lanny Carlson
|
01/15/2012 08:03 |
Frank,
The traditional response to anyone who says they don't believe in God is,
"What God don't you believe in?"
Quite often, it is then possible to say,
"I don't believe in that God either!"
What many people reject isn't God but some preconception
or misconception of God which, if I was required to accept,
would make an atheist of me, too!
It's also important to recognize that, unless one is a strict fundamentalist,
it isn't necessary to accept everything in the Bible literally
in order to believe that there is behind and beneath and through everything
a Creative Source and Sustainer.
Indeed, it takes more faith to be an atheist and to live in despair
than to believe that we are not an accident
and that there is a source and meaning and purpose to existence.
In the end, we have to admit that we don't have all the answers.
One of the greatest preachers of the last century was Dr. Leslie Weatherhead,
and one of his greatest books was entitled, "The Christian Agnostic,"
a book in which he admits his inability to accept some of the doctrines of faith
but concludes with a profound statement of his deep Christian faith.
Honesty behooves us to admit that in some sense we are all agnostic,
that about something things we have to admit that we simply don't know.
But that doesn't preclude faith in something greater than ourselves,
apart from which life becomes meaningless, as Macbeth suggests,
"a tale, told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
If the atheist REALLY believes that,
what makes them get up in the morning?
It's a thought worth considering!
|
| |
Forge
|
01/15/2012 10:26 |
I'm no biblical scholar, although I can say I have enough professional training in empathizing with people and dealing in rationalizations to see where your conversations could have been engineered.
I gave up arguing the matter, you can only choose to believe and witness for your own self. I choose *CHOOSE* to believe in Christ, in faith. Hebrews 11 tells us "Now faith is the assurance of thins hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" I don't have to prove my case, I know the sound of the Shepard's voice and I will follow him. (Tho somedays I feel more like a sheepdog than a sheep)
|
| |
Ray
|
01/15/2012 23:24 |
Yeah, the only real reason to engage Chris is that you care for him. You have to remember he has a big empty hole in his heart that he needs to satisfy, even if he doesn't know it. He is trying to fill it with anger at God by calling atheism his home. Any other motivation on your part will be transparent, fruitless, and a waste of time. God is love and He has to be in the mix for it to mean anything. Prayer comes first. Pray about the interactions. Even if you don't know how, just offer it to God and ask Him to take it from you and show you how to walk. If you don't really care about Chris then let it go.
|
| |
Lost Sheep
|
01/16/2012 07:01 |
I do care about him. I also know that I have to be very carefull and not let our conversations turn into me "winning" the argument and I will also say that at times its very hard for me to control my anger with him.
I dont get angry because he doesnt believe. I mean I have dont my job so to speak and shared the truth with him. I get angry when he bombards me with his thoughts and then simply disgards evidence that I share with him that show the power of God that I have witnessed in peoples lives. I even told him that if believing in God was such a powerful device that could create such massive changes in people that every single shrink in the world would be using it. A person can change things about themselves on a certain level and some can even fake it for a period, but only the power of the Holy Spirit can change a person into another person. I have seen that in my Dad and I have seen it in myself.
I will say that I am worse than my athiest friend. While he rejects the truth I ignore the truth having known it.
|
| |
Ray
|
01/16/2012 09:10 |
That is what is so cool about your thread. You're such an honest guy. I love that. I think Jesus loves it, too. Jesus is all about your character displayed here. Lots going on here, eh? So many levels. I love that, too.
Anger - Tell him about that. It could be he is just gaming you, like you are the entertainment of the week. But it could be he needs you deep down and doesn't know it. Jesus is all about the relationship between you. You know, Matt 22:36-39. He didn't teach us that idea to be in charge of our behavior. He taught it because it is how we get to be one with Him. Being honest with Chris might be a shock to his system. People don't tell the truth these days and it will be another thing that witnesses of the life inside you. His reaction to your honesty should tell you a lot and you are being open to him at an unusual level.
"I am worse than my atheist friend" Are you? How do you measure that? You don't have a fish on your bumper? You know what I mean. Walking with God is not looking like everyone else. It's walking with God. It's not the same from person to person. He is much more great and creative then that. You are putting yourself out there. Lots of believers can't be bothered. "I ignore the truth" Don't be so self-deprecating. You have GREAT value. Nobody on the planet is in the position you are in with Chris and you can feel God right in the mix. That is part of a plan, part of a war plan. Definitely this is about you as much as it is about Chris.
Know that you may not see fruit in Chris. Your job is only to bring him a little closer to the goal of Jesus. That's all. Jesus may have lots of other ways to pull Chris down the road, but unless you do you part he may not be ready to move. Notice that you change as you do your job. It's so amazing. That's how it works. We are soldiers in the trenches, not the commander.
Prayer - you didn't respond to that idea. I think this is THE focal point for you. I don't think there is anything more important in this adventure. It might be what it is all about for you, a lesson it prayer. Write about prayer if you can.
|
| |
Calico
|
01/16/2012 10:47 |
Hey Frank,
I like your thread here too. There's honesty in it (if not also a smudge too much self-disqualification, perhaps brought about by some past agreement you've still got lingering around...). And there are good encouragements and insights from the brothers and sisters here.
The Meeting House has excellent equipping for a great deal of what you're discussing with your atheist friend. I too was going to also suggest the "Say What?" series Ray recommended (oh, btw, Ray, Frank, see here: http://www.dailyaudiobible.com/Forums/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1000030811&page=1). And Pauline's recommendation for Geisler's book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" is a strong recommendation too (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615).
However, Wil has some good insight too: "I have enough professional training in empathizing with people and dealing in rationalizations to see where your conversations could have been engineered." Often in situations of dealing with an atheist, the ongoing barrage that comes upon the disciple of Christ (in this case flood your Facebook page) is not at all intended as "dialog." It's intended to be exactly what you've plainly said it is, Frank: a barrage, meant to destabilize you.
What I seem to see in your posts is that this man is not at all even open in the slightest to talking with you about THE PERSONHOOD of Jesus, nor the historicity of Him. Someone who begins a "dialog" with you with this sort of mindset as their start-point seems to want to engage with you (ie. attempting to encourage in you the same mindset) which then leads to a "throwing of rooftops" at one another. That is, perhaps rather than rationally and logically discussing premises and reasons (the "walls" that support would support their conclusions), they just "hurl conclusions" without support for them.
If nothing else, as well as the "Say What?" series will give you insight into what you've been experiencing (www.themeetinghouse.ca). As well, consider the "My God, Why?" series from The Meeting House also, which brings logic and reason AND LOVE to "the problem of evil."
And now, having said all that: Frank, I love that your preamble to your main point is so thorough. But I don't know if your writing of the post actually has anything to do with Chris's atheism per se. It seems that your post is more a humble outpouring of "realiz(ing) that God had been sifting me. I could tell that my faith in God was stronger, but my sin wasn’t as enjoyable. I honestly felt sick, physically for like a week. I am not feeling that way and still backslidden but this is just the beginning of the story."
To me, as far as being a DAB brother, THAT is FAR MORE IMPORTANT TO Me than is the discussion about the Chris and his atheism.
You can do well to profit from the "Say What?" series and the "My God, Why?" series, and Geisler's "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" book, and a myriad of things from William Lane Craig (he is a personal fave for sure; let me also through Greg Koukl's "Stand To Reason" podcast in there too, and his book "Tactics;" and anything Alvin Plantinga and Dallas Willard)...
...but I perhaps think that all of this is "secondary equipping" compared to God's calling of your heart to "realign your mark" with him (sin partly meaning "to miss the mark" http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=266).
Can we, as brothers and sisters here at DAB, help you turn conviction into conduct? You've already shared so much of your heart here. Wonderfully so, too. If there is any way possible for us to do so with you, then we would be honored to walk with you through it. It's clear to me that you've already picked up a great deal of equipping ("being fairly logical myself I concluded that for every argument there is a counter argument... God as always came through and I found some very intelligent Godly men...") under the heart-conviction you've felt, my friend. In Christ you are now free to make small changes in your life (or large, if you should choose), via what you've learned so far. I hope and pray that as brothers and sisters in Christ we can encourage you to live freely from the self-condemnation and self-disqualification, Frank. You're doing just fine, and there's more to come.
Praying with you and all these ones here,
Tom
|
(page
1
2
3)
|
