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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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01/17/2012 21:15 |
Lanny, I'm sitting with my mouth open with the "Jesus isn't God" bit. What is it that you are saying, and are you sure it's Christian? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - three in one. This is God, this is the "us" and "we" in Genesis, this is the nature of God. Jesus was not only fully human but also fully God. Of course he was God - he said that he needed to be at work in his Father's house when he was 12, this is him saying he is God. He states it by having the power to forgive sins, he states it to his judge Pilate when asked. When you say that Jesus never claimed to be God, you attack there very root and fibre of Christianity!
Respectfully, yet forcefully submitted,
John
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Craig from Illinois
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01/17/2012 21:22 |
That term "The Human One" stuck out to me too, Lanny. I'm glad you're writing about it and digging deeper in thought. You've got a real good point that people should see God in us too. It's been something I've been considering myself. I mean Jesus is our brother, right? We're a child of God (albeit adopted) but a child non-the-less. Good stuff Lanny. Keep talking.
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Lanny Carlson
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01/17/2012 21:24 |
Some additional observation.
Jesus was often in prayer.
If he was God, to whom was he praying?
He prayed to God as his Father.
But he taught the disciples to pray "OUR Father."
He said and did marvelous things.
But he said that his followers would do even greater things.
Jesus was and is the Human One.
As such, He is my Brother, my Teacher, my Example,
the One who calls me to take up my own cross and follow him
in the way that leads to life,
in faithfulness to the One to whom he was faithful even unto death.
(None of this is original with me.
Nor do I expect to change anyone else's beliefs and ideas.
But it is my attempt to express where I am right now theologically,
and it may provide some food for thought at least
for others who are also seeking to make sense of their faith
as followers of the One who call Lord.)
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Lanny Carlson
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01/17/2012 21:45 |
John T,
Thanks for your honest response.
Yes, Jesus said he was in his FATHER'S House -
he didn't say MY house.
God was his Father, but God is OUR Father, too,
else why would he tell us to pray OUR FATHER?
He forgave sin.
But we are all called to forgive sin,
and to proclaim God's forgiveness to those who need to hear it.
I understand that what I am saying isn't "orthodox,"
but neither is it original, nor do I believe it attacks the root of Christianity.
Jesus is the root of Christianity,
as the One who came to help us to see God as God is
and ourselves as we were created to be.
But in saying, "Why do you call me good,"
he was refusing to allow himself to be equated with God.
Indeed, as a devout Jew, I suspect he would be horrified
to see himself, a man, being worshiped as God!
I have no trouble singing songs of praise -
surely, he is worthy of our praise.
(I am not a Sikh, but I note that their sacred chants
are often addressed to their founding gurus,
but the gurus are felt to be those who revealed God,
and are in no way God themselves.)
In the man Jesus I see God revealed as in no other man.
But he was not equal to God, and never claimed to be.
He came to point us to the One who alone is God.
That, at least, is why I am His follower.
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John T
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01/17/2012 21:48 |
Some food for thought:
Part 1:
We believe that the one true God exists eternally in three persons—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and that these, being one God, are equal in deity, power and glory. We believe that God not only created the world but also now upholds, sustains, governs and providentially directs all that exists and that He will bring all things to their proper completion in Christ Jesus to the glory of His name. (Ps. 104, 139; Matt. 10:29–31, 28:19; Acts 17:24–28; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 1:9–12, 4:4–6; Col. 1:16–17; Heb. 1:1–3; Rev. 1:4–6)
Specifically the first sentence: "We believe that the one true God exists eternally in three persons—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and that these, being one God, are equal in deity, power and glory." - Equal in deity, power and glory. Christ was one with God.
Part 2:
We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man; that He was conceived and born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself as a substitutionary sacrifice for mankind. We believe that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, signing the pardon of all who believe on Him. We believe He was raised bodily on the third day and ascended to the right hand of the Father, there to make intercession for the saints forever. (Matt. 1:18–25; Jn. 1:1–18; John 3:16; Rom. 5:8; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 15:1–28; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:10–14; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 2:6–11; Col. 1:15–23; Heb. 7:25, 9:13–15, 10:19; 1 Pet. 2:21–25; 1 Jn. 2:1–2)
Again, specifically the first sentence: "We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man; that He was conceived and born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself as a substitutionary sacrifice for mankind." - He was both fully God and fully man and he lived a sinless life. If he did not live a sinless life, then his death would have been in vain.
Part 3:
NICENE CREED (AD 325)
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all worlds;
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation,
came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary,
and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life;
who proceeds from the Father and the Son;
who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified;
who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic* and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Specifically a few parts: "begotten" - that is not created, but a son of God, a part of God, not adopted sons as we are but a true Son and part of the Godhead.
Food for considerable thought,
John
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Lanny Carlson
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01/17/2012 22:39 |
John,
Yes, I am well aware of the various Creeds
which were human attempts over a period of 300+ years to put the faith into words.
But they are simply that - "human" and "attempts."
I don't grant authority and certainly not infallibility to these human attempts,
and while I can appreciate the effort, I am not bound to agree with everything they say, especially when it would mean accepting things I can no longer believe.
(No, that doesn't mean we are free to believe any old thing we want to believe.
But the heart of the Gospel is the message that God is love,
and this message is what I see embodied and expressed so fully in Jesus.
Sometimes it seems as though the Creeds major in minors.
For example, all of them put so much emphasis on the Virgin Birth.
But that concept was hardly an essential doctrine in the early Church.
It is mentioned only in Matthew and Luke.
Paul never mentions it in any of his letters,
something he surely would have alluded to if it was an essential of the faith.
It could even be argued, and has been argued,
that part of what it means to be human is to have a human father and mother,
and if Jesus had no human father, he would have been less than fully human.
In fact, if he had been born through parthenogenesis,
he would have lacked a male gene and would have been born a female
(as some wag put it, Christ would have been Christine!)
Also, the idea of Jesus being "begotten,"
if taken literally, creates some rather crude mental images,
and creates an anthropomorphic image of God which makes God far too small.
None of this means, of course, that the Virgin Birth
couldn't have happened or didn't happen.
And nothing I've written is intended to offend
or to belittle anyone's beliefs.
It simply means that, as far as I'm concerned,
it really isn't that important or essential to the faith.)
Grace and Peace,
Lanny
You also put emphasis on the idea of substitutionary atonement.
I won't get into that here,
except to say that we had a very long discussion in the Forums last year
on the topic "Example or Sacrifice," or something like that,
and substitution is only one theory of the atonement,
the moral influence theory being the one that makes the most sense to me.
Take a look at that thread if you're interested.
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Catholica
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01/18/2012 10:06 |
Oh my, Lanny. Know that I respect you as a person and I know that you seek God ardently. But Lanny, Jesus is God. God the Father was not simply "in Jesus" as He is in any one of us. Jesus was not simply a human being. Jesus IS the Word, who was in the beginning, who became incarnate, and who will always be. The Word WAS God. The whole first chapter of John lays clear that Jesus IS God. Jesus also said, "Before Abraham was, I am". He invokes the name of God "I am" and applies it to himself. This is not a normal person that we are talking about.
Eastern religions see shadows of God but they have not received the sort of direct revelation of God that we have. The Trinity was not a made up doctrine of the 4th century; it was believed from the earliest times, as was the divinity of Jesus.
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).
"For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).
These are just two examples of Christians who sat at the feet of the apostles themselves. They certainly would not have made up that Jesus IS God. Also note Jesus' post-resurrectional failure to rebuke those who fell to their knees and worshiped him in Matthew 28. If Jesus was not God, then these instance of worship were pure idolatry. But the fact is is that Jesus IS God, the Second person of the Most Holy Trinity.
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Calico
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01/18/2012 11:16 |
Andre,
You've added words here so much more succinctly than I can, and I am very much in agreement with what you've just shared. My time is so short right now that I haven't been able to respond here to what you, Lanny, and you, John, have each been positioning - but of what you've expressed here, Andre, I would click the "Like" button if there was one (me being new to Facebook, finally LOL).
Thanks Retro!
Praying with each of you, here,
Tom
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John T
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01/18/2012 11:43 |
Thanks all, I appreciate the discussion. And Lanny, just to let you know, the post I did with the doctrinal statements - that came from the "What we believe" section of this very website - cut and paste, with the verses to back it up.
I have to ask though, when you take away Christ's death, his blood, his virgin birth, and his son-ship of the Father - what is it that you have left? Just who are you actually believing in, and how does he have the power to save if not for these things? If some random nice guy died on a cross, would it allow us to be covered with righteousness and enter heaven?
Thanks,
John
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Lanny Carlson
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01/18/2012 13:57 |
Andre,
It's good to hear from you and read your comments.
I would especially like to hear your comments on the thread, "Sacred Chant,"
as it is much more a part of your tradition than the Protestant tradition.
As for the current thread, I'm not at all surprised that we disagree,
and I expect we will continue to do so.
I'll have much more to say, I'm sure,
but for now just a few quick observations.
Jesus was a man of prayer, and was frequently praying to the Father.
But if he was God, to whom was he praying?
Was he talking to himself?
Further, when Jesus prayed to the Father,
and taught the disciples to pray, "OUR Father,
was he playing word games?
Or wasn't he actually saying that his Father is our Father as well?
Yes, the Gospel of John uses a lot of "I AM" statements.
But we have to remember that this Gospel was quite different than the Synoptics,
less a retelling of events and teachings of Jesus
and more a theological treatise.
And even in John's Gospel,
we find the message that what Jesus was
is what we are also meant to be, and can be.
I've frequently cited his charge to the woman caught in adultery
to "Go, and sin no more," a cruel thing to say
if she was in fact incapable of sinning no more.
The Spirit that was in Christ is also within us,
and he came to call us to live by the power of the Spirit
and to do even greater things than he did!.
As for the quotes from the early Church Fathers,
you know as well as I do that there were also early Christians
who held different views, views later condemned as heresy
by those who were on the "winning" side,
but viable alternatives at the time.
I'm sure we'll both have more to say,
but that will do it for now.
Grace and Peace,
Lanny
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