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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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01/29/2012 17:30 |
Thanks Lanny, perhaps true about Lewis, but he also wrote a wonderful story called Screwtape letters showing his belief that there are forces and evil spirits that are active in deceit in the word, and they can worth through a belief that they don't exist, or in one that they are powerless, or in many other ways. That's what I was getting at.
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John T
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01/29/2012 18:08 |
Hey Lanny, an important question just came to mind. You've been dismantling the trinity to my understanding, stating that God the Son (of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) doesn't exist, and wasn't God the Son, but just a man. So what happens to the 3rd part - the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in the Holy Spirit - "I will send a comforter" "The Holy Spirit descended on Christ like a dove" "The disciples were annointed" etc.? Or does that all vanish as well?
I just don't understand how a belief that Jesus isn't part of the Godhead fits in the Bible - it seems to totally unravel everything else.
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Saint Grogan
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01/29/2012 18:49 |
“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning.” (John 8:23-25)
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howard
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01/29/2012 21:36 |
Lanny,
The only path to the Father is thru Jesus and Jesus alone.
The bible is God inspired and is not in error.
Unless this Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh has forsaken Buddhism and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior he has no eternal life. The same with Ghandi.
Jesus is the alpha and omega the beginning and end.
All this reading has drawn you away from God and you need to return to Jesus.
Howard
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Lanny Carlson
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01/29/2012 21:47 |
Howard,
With all due respect, when you say something like
"Unless this Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh has forsaken Buddhism and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior he has no eternal life. The same with Gandhi,"
it really saddens me.
To make pronouncements about anyone's destiny
is to play God, and it's that kind of attitude
which draws us away from God and blinds us to the love of God
Jesus came to reveal.
I'm not standing in judgment of you,
or suggesting that you MEAN to be playing God,
but, friend, that is what your words convey.
I just got back from the hospital,
where my wife is undergoing IV's twice a day for MRSA -
and this is the 4th time she's gone through this since March -
so it's late and I'm tired,
and I may be sounding harsh.
But when someone stands in judgment
over people I so deeply admire
and who have so deepened my faith in God,
I can't help but react.
Grace and Peace,
Lanny
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Calico
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01/29/2012 21:57 |
Lanny, praying with you, and with Connie...
hugs, brother,
Tom
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Lanny Carlson
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01/29/2012 22:00 |
Thanks, Tom.
I really appreciate that.
Grace and Peace, brother!
Lanny
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Catholica
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01/30/2012 11:12 |
Hi Lanny,
This is in response to the post you wrote on 1/27/2012 (17:36)
I am familiar with the Belief-O-Matic quiz, I submitted my results with you and others a couple of years ago now, IIRC. Naturally, my results came up 100% Catholic, no surprise. I think the questions on the quiz are interesting. No doubt that there is much overlap between the religions of the world. I think this is a testament to the fact that God has written his law on the human heart, and also that we are made in his likeness. Even those who have never received the gospel still perceive certain truths about God in their heart.
Certainly we believe different things. I think even more fundamental to the differences between you and I (and perhaps you and most people who confess Christianity) is that we take the Bible to be the words of God himself and inerrant. In most parts of Christianity, we don't believe that our religion is merely a human attempt to understand God, but rather God's direct condescending to mankind so that we might know him absolutely. The God of Christianity is a personal God, who came to Moses in the burning bush and spoke to him directly, who also spoke through prophets, and who then sent Jesus, who was "greater than Moses" who spoke with God directly, so that we might know him. The only way person could have been "greater than Moses" to the Jews is if he was God himself. After all, Moses spoke directly with God - because of this, there was no greater authority among men than Moses. The Jews had always wondered how one could be greater than Moses. Jesus is the answer.
I disagree, most whole-heartedly, when you say that "God is not a person" yet I agree with you that "God IS being". God is both being, the source of all life, who sustains all life, and also a person. If God is not a being, then he could not have spoken with Adam, could not have spoken to Moses, could not have been called Father and could not have had a Son. He could not forgive sins, nor could he cause miracles to happen. If God "IS" being then how do we explain preternatural beings such as angels? If there are no angels, then there was no annunciation, there is no devil. If God is not a person, then there will be no judgment. Basically the whole Bible is one big fat lie if God is not a person, but is just "existence itself".
In saying that God is being, I believe you truly perceive God in one of his attributes, and that is being itself, as many religions (and according to the Bible, all mankind) have and can perceive God. Yet if God IS existence, then at one time, there was no God, before the Universe existed, and therefore "God" is not eternal. The Universe did not pop out of nothing, there HAD to be a creator. Even the staunchest atheist scientists have to dance around this fact, that something doesn't simply pop out of nothing. There has to be a prime mover. I understood this as a child, even before I had ever been exposed to the Bible or belief. I think all children naturally do, even ones raised in atheistic cultures (such as Japan).
God as person is not a Greek philosophical concept. It is reality! I know saying so does not make it true, but following the logic of the natural universe and its creation, it has to be true.
Once we understand God as person, the next step is to ponder what it means that "God is love". If God is love, then what is love? Is love something that we direct at ourselves? No, love is something that is intended for other. Yet clearly we know that at one time, people did not exist, and also nothing existed before the universe, nothing natural anyway. Even at one time the angels did not exist, as they are created beings as well. Yet God is unchangeable. So if God IS love, then God must himself be a community. Yet we know that God is one. The mystery of the Trinity is hidden in that truth that God IS Love: God the Father loves God the Son, God the Son loves God the Father, and their mutual love, just like human procreation, brought forth another person, the Holy Spirit, who is the third person of the Trinity, also clearly personified in the scriptures.
Yet how do we know all this? Is it merely human ponderings on the nature of God? If so then any and all of the Bible is suspect. But if we believe that God did and does intervene with his people, then we believe that God made himself known to us, and so we believe in revelation.
Without revelation from God, one cannot have faith. What exactly is faith if not belief in those things which God revealed, and trust in God? At some point there comes to be things which people cannot determine for themselves through reason, which we hold as weakened naturally, and often turns into rationalization. The strength behind human use of reason is faith in God and what He has revealed. If we hold that what God has revealed to be true, only then can our use of reason be relied upon, and not have it turn into rationalization.
From what you have explained to me, it seems that this manner of religion that you adhere to is based completely on human reason and not on faith. Perhaps that is an underestimation, but when we hold the Bible as simply man's attempt to understand God, then what are we left with?
God is perfect, do you believe that? If we believe that God is not perfect, then no standard of perfection exists, and thus there is no absolute truth, no moral standard. And God is all powerful as well, do you believe that? If God is not all powerful, then something more powerful must have created "God", and that entity itself must be God. So God is all powerful. If God is all powerful, to create the universe, then it should be no shock when the Bible says that God created man from clay. And if God created man from clay, then what would prevent him from becoming Man? Surely becoming man is easier for God than creating the entire universe from nothing. So it is possible that God became flesh. And in fact that is what He did. And this God who IS love must also be a community, a Tri-unity, revealed to us as three "persons". Jesus is the Word, the Word clearly stated as "God" and "personified". The Holy Spirit is also clearly "personified". The three together share the one divinity who is God.
Perhaps I have just reiterated to you those things which you already have heard taught before and have rejected. I at least ask you to study this concept of Trinity. Perhaps those people who taught it throughout time have a deep understanding of God that you could profit from. It can't hurt, right? I mean, these people who believed the Trinity concept have been very holy people indeed, many of whom even performed miracles in their lives. Perhaps they are great prophets which have not been made known to those who follow Sikhism. Jesus even himself said "you will do greater things than I". Surely isn't the greatest thing, in your estimation, come to an even deeper understanding of the nature of God than that that is explicitly written from the lips of Jesus? Jesus also told his followers that he would "lead them into all truth" according to the gospel of John. Was John not one that would be led into all truth? Was Jesus completely wrong when he said this such that John would have written that Jesus was God?
Just some things to ponder.
I would simply add that many people through the ages have drawn great comfort and hope knowing that God is a person who is very interested, involved, and close to those people who love him. They have been sustained through suffering and brought to a place of deep love and contemplation of God, performing great deeds that could not be performed except supernaturally. Surely that understanding of God is worth pursuing.
Your friend in Christ,
Andre
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Lanny Carlson
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01/30/2012 11:44 |
John T
It's interesting that you raised the issue of the Holy Spirit,
because for some time I was thinking of starting a new thread on
"Rethinking the Trinity."
But since you raised the issue, and it's not unrelated to your question,
I'll attempt to deal with it here.
First, I believe in the reality of God
(that can't be proved, of course,
but neither can the belief that there is no God -
both are ultimately matters of faith!)
I don't believe God is a "being,"
but that God is Being itself,
the Ground of ALL being,to use Tillich's phrase,
the source and sustainer of everything that is.
I believe that God is present in everything
("If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all")
not in a pantheistic way but in a panentheistic way -
God isn't equal to everything, God is greater than that,
but God can be seen within everything.
At the same time,
I believe that God is more than an abstract concept,
or an impersonal reality.
The Spirit is that of God within each one of us
through which God communes with us and speaks to us.
Finally, Jesus is the lens through which we see man as we are created to be,
see God more clearly, and recognize the spirit of God.
For example, we see that God is love,
because that's what Jesus not only says but demonstrates.
And we know that if we were to think
that the Spirit is telling us to seek revenge
or to lie or cheat or steal or kill,
as Christians we know that this is not truly the Spirit,
because these things are incompatible with what we see in Jesus.
I don't use the word Trinity any more,
in part because it's never found in Scripture,
it wasn't a part of the earliest message of the Church
but was a doctrine that was formulated over 3-4 centuries,
and it leads too easily to a tri-theistic view of God.
I believe that the concept of the Trinity,
if used at all, is best understood
not as an ontological statement about the nature of God,
but as the great preacher of the last century,
Harry Emerson used the term, as a "Trinity of experience,"
describing how we experience God -
we see God in creation,
we see and understand the Creator through the life of the man Jesus,
and we experience God within us.
One God, experienced in different ways,
but still ONE GOD.
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howard
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01/30/2012 14:06 |
Lanny,
Thank you for letting me know about your wife and what she is going thru. I will keep her and you in my prayers. Please get some rest yourself.
You have read the words that Jesus spoke from his own mouth for us to recieve eternal life.
You have also read what Thich Nhat Hanh and Ghandi have written and what they believe. You also know what Christian missionaries are doing all over the world and why.
I want to be and I want you and these people in Gods Kingdom.
As you read these other books and you not only see these people having Christ like lives, please check and see if they also believe what John 14:6 says.
Again thanks for the discussion,
Howard
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