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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Catholica
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04/13/2012 21:44 |
Hi Forge, just refresh and the original posts will appear. Its a quirk of the forum, it only happens the first time you view a thread.
Your sentiment is well noted. For me it is a blessing to feel that connection to heaven, and it is not only inspiring to read about the lives of the Saints, but also comforting to know that someone in a similar situation as me can be close to me spiritually and pray for me.
We all can of course pray to our Lord Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit and I often do. Yet there is something unapproachable about God in some ways. I think Jesus knew this, and that is another reason why he invites us to pray for one another and ask for others to pray for us. The communion Jesus places us in is so vital and nourishing and alive. For me to know that communion extends right up to heaven is really edifying and encouraging.
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Forge
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04/13/2012 21:56 |
Well, for me, it helps to think of a knight, armed and armored. I may not lift my head to gaze upon my Lord, but I am his vassel none the less and I hear His word. Approachable or not, I am His to command, and when I hear His word, I turn on heel and go.
I'm in no place to judge whether or not the souls of those parted can pray our behalf, but then again I dont think that the path to hell be paved with good intentions either. Read the Manual and seek him how you may within what is presented therein and you will find Him.
No on has a monopoly on truth. As mentioned in "The Princess Bride", "anyone who tells you differently is selling something"
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GodB4Me
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04/14/2012 09:44 |
A lot covered here, thanks to all who contributed....
Andre, are you sure you aren't a priest? You have done an extraordinary job of explaining this to non Catholics and me who was raised Catholic who never took the time to ask why are we doing this, just obey the nuns or else get a slap, if you know what I mean!!!! I don't think a parish priest would have the patience and endurance you have displayed. I want to sincerely thank you for all of your research that went into this thread. I will pray with and for you.
And all who keep Andre's feet to the fire, who asked him to keep explaining and defending his religion.
What can I say other than once again I am amazed at what goes on here.
Lisa
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Saint Grogan
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04/16/2012 02:36 |
Marcie wrote:
Do you think He is limited by what He has inspired in the Bible and never goes outside what is already written there? Just something to ponder.
Ponder this. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 tells us that everything a Christian needs to know about Salvation can be found in the Bible.
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
If you were to become a student of church history, you will find there have been many who try and get around what God Himself has commanded, that being:
“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)
You have those who have edited the Bible with their unique translations of it. You have those who have produced supposedly new revelations from God. And then you have those who have supplemented God’s word with “traditions” which cannot be traced back to Christ or the Apostles. Each one of them can twist the Scriptures to cast doubt upon what the text really says.
The devil asked Eve, “Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1)” That question caused Eve to stumble in her understanding of what she had been commanded not to do by God. God warned both Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit, they would surely die. So, the Devil told Eve in order to further draw Eve away from God, “Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:4-5)” The rest, as we say, is history.
“Ye shall be as gods”.
Not to be a God, but be “like” one. What a thing to aspire to be when we die. Imagine, when you die, should you make it to Heaven, you were given the ability to hear the prayers of the living here on Earth who knew you were there and you could pray to you to use your Heavenly influence to petition the Father to answer your requests. That would make you omnipresent because you would be able to hear millions of prayers all at the same time. You would also be omniscient because you would be able to understand all the languages of all the countries all over the world. Let’s just say that God answered one of your petitions from someone who prayed to you. That would make you “like” omnipotent wouldn’t it? That person who prayed to you might be inclined to pray to you more often. He or she might encourage others to pray to you also.
“Ye shall be as gods”
One denomination goes as far as writing in their official doctrines, “The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature. For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine son ship, might become a son of God. "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." There was a footnote that went along with this that referenced 2 Peter 1:4 that reads:
“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.” (2 Peter 1:4)
This verse does not agree with the doctrine of the afore mentioned denomination because we do not become Gods or Godlike when we die. Peter is not talking about the afterlife. In verse 3 of Chapter 1 of 2 Peter he writes:
“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:” (2 Peter 1:3)
Peter clearly limits what the “divine nature” is pertaining to which is “all things pertaining unto life and godliness” This means everything that a Christian needs to serve God and to live a Godly life are freely given. Because Christians are “partakers” of God’s very nature, they share in Christ’s victory over sin in their lives and victory over death through eternal life. They are, in a sense "made divine," by Christ's indwelling. They can now become more like Christ. It is these qualities that allow the believer to “escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires” in their Christian walk by victory over it in life not by death.
“Ye shall be as gods”
(I’ll write more when I have the time)
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Saint Grogan
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04/16/2012 03:01 |
Incidentally, I don’t want anyone taking my posts as truth. I could be lying to you. I never said I know everything because I don’t.
Peter said that Christians were a “Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5) and as priest in the kingdom of God, we are expected to know what we believe and why we believe it. Christ held the religious leaders accountable in knowing what had been written in the Scriptures, “Have ye not read…”
Luke commended the Thessalonians because even though Paul was a representative the church, the Thessalonians still searched the Scriptures to make sure that what Paul was teaching them was consistent with them. (Acts 17:11)
I encourage you to do the same.
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Lanny Carlson
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04/16/2012 10:20 |
Grogan,
You quoted:
"“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)"
You also quote 2 Timothy:
But again, "all Scripture" refers to the Old Testament,
as none of the New Testament was yet considered Scripture!
If Scripture is all we need,
or for that matter the only revelation we have,
what are we to do with all the New Testament
or anything else people have considered divine revelation?
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
Taken literally, that would rule out the New Testament. It would even rule out anything but the Pentateuch, which is precisely what the Sadducees did!
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Catholica
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04/16/2012 12:29 |
Hello all,
This is interesting. The more I meditate on what Grogan wrote in his last two posts, the more I learn.
First before anything, a clarification is in order. The Catholic Church does not teach, and faithful Catholics do *not* believe, by any means, that the partaking in the divine nature leads to a person being omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. /Not/ omnipotent, since we believe that the saints in heaven /pray/ to God for us, /not/ supplying answers to prayers of their own power. /Not/ omnipresent since we believe they live in heaven alone (being able to hear multiple prayers at once being related to how /time works/ in heaven, not their being /present/: note that we also believe that mental prayers can be heard by the saints, which their presence, even if we believed in it (which we don't) would not matter). /Not/ omniscient, as the we believe that they are only made aware of those things that God grants them to be aware, which include requests for their intercession.
That being said, lets look at the point that is quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 460, which reads:
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature". (2 Peter 1:4) "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine son ship, might become a son of God." (St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939, ca AD 180) "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." (St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B, ca AD 318) "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4 ca AD 1265)
The question is, whether this is true. Turning to scripture, consider the following verses:
Psalm 82:6
I declare: “Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,
Here the psalm has God himself calling his people "gods". Therefore in some sense we are "gods" though not gods like God is God. One might quibble with my interpretation of this verse. Yet we can find an even better interpretation with more authority...
John 10:32-37
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” Jesus answered them “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me; but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize [and understand] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
Scripture cannot be set aside, saith the Lord. Jesus here refers to Psalm 82:6, which says "You are Gods" in defense of his claiming to be the Son of God. Jesus goes further and says "it calls them gods to whom the word of God came". Therefore in Jesus' teaching, we see that, in fact, we are in a certain sense "gods". Not on the same order as the Most Holy Trinity, not by a stretch, yet it is somehow possible to say that we are gods.
Therefore we must come to an understanding of what this means, that "we are gods". Is this Mormonism, or polytheism? Not by a long shot, at least, that is what the Catholic Church teaches. In Mormonism and polytheism, all the "gods" are either the same or roughly the same in power and stature, and separate, not reliant on each other. The Catholic Church teaches that this partaking in the divine nature is a GIFT that the one most high God gives to us, to *partake* in the (one) divine nature, and take part in the life of God. The Catholic Church teaches that Saints do not have their own divine power, but simply that God grants them some part in his own life.
How is what the Catholic Church teaches (and what I believe is an important part of the gospel) unlike the garden of Eden, where the devil said "you will be like God"? The key is this: in the garden, Adam and Eve /reached out/ their hands to try to /grasp for themselves/ what was meant to be a gift, rather than to obediently allow God to bestow the gift on them. How do I know? Scripture...
Philippians 2:5-11
Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be /grasped/. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This "did not regard equality with God something to be grasped" is a key phrase along with "God greatly exalted him". God /wanted/ to give the gifts of sonship and unity with him to humankind from the beginning. Adam was a son of God (Luke 3:38) and walked with God in the garden, and received everything from God. But he reached out and tried to grasp the fruit that was forbidden to /make himself/ like God, and so he fell. Jesus, rather than trying to gain the whole world via the temptation of the devil in the desert, was rather obedient to God the Father and so was granted a gift to be "exalted". We are also sons of God, and through that same God who gives all good things, grants us the gift to take part in his divine nature, which surely should be considered as us "being exalted" as well.
The Catholic faith does not teach that we can be like God on our own power, but rather that God wants to raise us up to partake in His nature as a great gift to us. We are the happy recipients of the great gifts that God wishes to bestow on us, including God's own presence in our soul.
To sum up, in fact scripture /does/ say that we are "gods" (Psalm 82:6, John 10:34), and a right understanding of those scriptures as applied to us can only rightly be understood as what is made plain in 2 Peter 1:4, that God grants us the power to partake in his own divine nature as we escape the corruption that is in the world due to evil desire: recipients of the great gift from God to take part in God's own life and works, a gift we receive, not grasp ourselves (Philippians 2:6). We have received the knowledge of God (the Word) and his promises (2 Peter 1:3, John 10:35) and so we are rightly called "gods", taking part in His nature (2 Peter 1:4, John 10:36) What a wonderful parallel those two passages are! The manner of our "partaking in the divine nature" once we are perfect can be seen (at least in part) by what the saints are shown doing in heaven, such as Rev. 5:8, offering the prayers of the holy ones to the lamb.
If one doesn't believe that the saints in heaven have been raised up by God to partake in the divine nature, then (as Jesus suggested for his own purposes) consider the works of the saints in heaven: the many miracles that have taken place by their intercession. If they do not perform the Father's works then don't believe me. The fact remains, however, that they do take part in the father's works through their intercession, and thousands and thousands of real miracles have taken place because of their prayers. God is in them, and they are in God, just like God is in us, and we are in God whilst we are in God's friendship, a great gift that He has bestowed on us. As we escape the corruption that is in the world, we partake more in the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) Those in heaven have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:23) and have come to the fulness of that partaking in the divine nature.
Andre
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Catholica
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04/16/2012 13:22 |
More analysis and info:
First, concerning 2 Peter 1:3, pay attention to the tense of the verbs:
"His divine power has *bestowed* on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power."
This is a past tense verb: bestowed. Peter is speaking about revelation, "the knowledge of him who called us". And we see that (as Grogan brought up) everything that makes for life and devotion *has already been received*.
Next 2 Peter 1:4 one more time:
"Through these, he has *bestowed* on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you *may come* to share in the divine nature, *after* escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
Another past-tense verb "bestowed" with regard to *promises*. These promises are fulfilled in the future: see the words "may come" and "after". Thereby this "partaking in the divine nature" has nothing to do with things that have already been received, a la "everything that makes for life and devotion", but rather promises to be fulfilled in the future. In short, the divine nature that Peter refers to has nothing to do with the things that have already been received, aka everything that makes for life and devotion. The partaking in the divine nature is a promise of something in the future.
Secondly, here are some links to the reading of the Church Fathers (and St. Thomas Aquinas) in context:
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"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine son ship, might become a son of God." (St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939, ca AD 180)
Paragraph 1 has the quote, the rest is interesting too. Written around the year 180.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103319.htm
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"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." (St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B, ca AD 318)
Paragraph 54 has the quote. Written around the year 318.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2802.htm
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4 ca AD 1265)
See Odd Years: Thomas Aquinas, Officium Corporis Christi "Sacerdos". Written around the year 1264.
http://www.josephkenny.joyeurs.com/Chant/RdCorpC.htm
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An article on the meaning of a "divine gift" which is what we consider the ability of those in heaven to hear and pray for us to be: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm
And finally, the entry in the Catechism of the Catholic Church containing the above, in which all of the implications of the incarnation are outlined:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm
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Marcie in MO
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04/16/2012 19:51 |
Grogan, that's a mighty small box you are trying to fit God into.
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Craig from Illinois
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04/16/2012 21:59 |
Blown away, Andre! That's a lot to digest. At some point I would love to read your curriculum vitae.
This thread on a singular topic exposes the bigger issue of proper exegesis. Critical interpretation of scripture, for me, is an admitted weakness. Reading the work of a heavy-weight does not increase my confidence but it does increase my personal faith in the grandeur of our God.
Back to the topic... I have to admit that I can't recall ever contemplating the scripture text from John 10:32-37 or how it fits into the Genesis story of the Fall of Man. And then to it all come back to relevancy in Philippians 2:5-11... WOW! I know I've never heard a sermon put those three texts together!
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