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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Saint Grogan
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04/23/2012 04:12 |
I’ve spent some time looking through a few very anti-protestant websites on the subject of intercessory prayer by the “saints.” I want to share a few thoughts, some of which I probably have already discussed before.
The “veneration” of saints is unbiblical. The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for Them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. There is absolutely no evidence that the early church at least for the first hundred years of its birth observed such a practice. There are no examples where anyone in the Old or New Testament prayed to anyone other than God. We are not directed in Scripture to pray to departed saints. Prayer is to be directed to God alone.
“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.” (Matthew 6:6)
Under the Old Covenant, only the High Priest could enter the sacred chamber where the Ark of the Covenant rested and officially interpose on behalf of the people. Christ is our High Priest and King under the New Covenant. Through the giving of Himself, He makes it possible for believers to approach God. The saints, no matter how great they may have been here on Earth, are in no position to share this unique position.
Christ said, “… I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6).
Paul said, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
Paul also wrote, “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father” ( Ephesians 2:18).
The writer of Hebrews said, “He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” (Hebrew 7:26-27)
The Holy Spirit intercedes on behalf of believers. Romans 8:26-27 says, “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
As we are to aspire to glorify our Lord, Praying to departed spirits not only robs God of glory that is rightfully His but, is an insult to The Lord Jesus Christ to say that the Father enlists multitudes of other intercessors in Heaven. Such a belief supposes a deficiency in God and an inadequacy of Christ’s position as High Priest before the Father.
Advocates of intercessory prayer by the “saints” use the Book of Revelation, Chapter 5:8 as their proof text to support their assertion that departed “saints” in Heaven intercede for the living on Earth.
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Revelation 5:8)
There is no evidence in this verse to support the idea that the departed intercede for the living unless you read a whole bunch of stuff into it.
There is a one time apocalyptic event going on.
The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic.
Only the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are given the vials, not everyone.
Nowhere does this verse nor the chapter say how they got the prayers.
Nowhere does the verse say that they heard the prayers themselves.
Nowhere does the verse say who the “saints” are.
The beast nor the elders did anything with the vials.
Nowhere does it say that anyone is interceding.
The concept of a “Communion of Saints” also has no Biblical foundation. We know that God hears our prayers because Scripture tells us that He does. We don’t know that when we die we will be able to hear or see people here on Earth. It is a foolish assumption to believe that we do. Those who promote the practice of praying to the departed, point to Hebrews 12:1 as their proof text to support their assertion that departed “saints” are aware of what happens on the earth.
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Hebrews 12:1)
This is a weak argument because Hebrews 12:1 says that the Old Testament saints can attest for their faith through their martyrdom.
Why ask a “saint” to pray for you when you have access through Jesus Christ to the Father yourself? Only God can answer prayer. Those who promote praying to imaginary “saints” say that this is no different than asking a friend to pray for them. Let’s examine that assertion. First, “saints” aren’t physically present. Secondly, by their own admission, they say that praying to those in heaven is more effective than us praying to God directly. This poses a question. Why are we directed to pray for one another here on Earth if praying to a “saint” carries with it more of a guarantee with God? Craig from Illinois wouldn’t get on his knees before Andre, clasp his hands together with his eyes closed and say,
“Oh, Andre, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God, pray for me. I place in you all my interests and desires. Oh, Andre, do assist me by your powerful intercession, and obtain for me from Lord Jesus all spiritual blessings. So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer you my thanksgiving and homage...”
All your interests and desires? Really? Can a “saint” protect you or guide you? Who can give grace but God?
The practice of venerating “saints” has more in common with Polytheism than biblical Christianity. No longer do you have the God of wisdom and warfare, now you have a patron “Saint” of wisdom and warfare that does that now. Advocates of “saintly veneration” will disagree but, the term “veneration” is defined as worship, a profound respect or reverence. Prayer is also considered worship because it contains petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, praise, etc. It is spiritual communication with God who is worthy of ALL worship. But to get around calling it worship, they just redefine terms.
It is wrong to religiously “venerate” anyone but God. This is a clear teaching in Scripture. Jesus said, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” (Matthew 4:10)
Next time, I’ll be discussing the topic of necromancy.
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Lanny Carlson
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04/23/2012 10:07 |
Grogan said,
"The practice of venerating “saints” has more in common with Polytheism than biblical Christianity. No longer do you have the God of wisdom and warfare, now you have a patron “Saint” of wisdom and warfare that does that now. Advocates of “saintly veneration” will disagree but, the term “veneration” is defined as worship, a profound respect or reverence. Prayer is also considered worship because it contains petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, praise, etc. It is spiritual communication with God who is worthy of ALL worship. But to get around calling it worship, they just redefine terms."
This is an incredible thing to say!
The veneration of saints has NOTHING to do with polytheism.
In fact, orthodox Christianity is much more prone to this argument,
as Jews and Muslims reject Christianity in part because they see it as tri-theistic.
And I am coming to agree with them.
The doctrine of the Trinity is not a Biblical doctrine,
and wasn't codified for several centuries.
And despite all kinds of semantic gymnastics,
"redefining terms," as Grogan says,
doesn't changeful how we throw around terms and make accusations!
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Lanny Carlson
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04/23/2012 10:10 |
the last sentence got garbled:
"doesn't change the fact that the Trinity is essential tri-theistic,
so lets be careful how we throw around terms and make accusations!"
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Craig from Illinois
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04/24/2012 17:30 |
A quote from a friend that describes our discussion...
It's important to discover your convictions and hold onto them strongly. But there's a difference between holding strongly to your convictions at the expense of others, and holding strongly to your convictions for the sake of others. One strives to be right no matter what, the other strives to build others up no matter what.
It's good to be fully convinced about what you believe. Yet it's also good to give God enough leeway to allow God to speak into other people's lives, just as He's spoken into yours.
As you work on renewing your mind this week, remember that God is working on the minds of others as well. Give them the grace they need to let God do His work in their lives, just as He's given you the grace you need He works in yours. As Paul concluded:
"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."
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Lanny Carlson
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04/24/2012 17:58 |
Thank you, Craig.
Excellent words we all need to remembe!
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Saint Grogan
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04/25/2012 14:25 |
Lanny wrote:
“But again, "all Scripture" refers to the Old Testament,
as none of the New Testament was yet considered Scripture!
If Scripture is all we need,”
Peter refers to Paul’s writings as Scripture:
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)
Surely, you wouldn’t rule out the writings by the original Apostles that being John and Peter(maybe YOU would). Paul quotes Luke’s writings with the standard introduction of “for the Scriptures say…” (1 Timothy 5:18, quoting Luke 10:7). That leaves Matthew, Mark, James, the writer of Hebrews and Jude. If you want to make a case for these books, knock yourself out. Peter said, “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:21). I say, since the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Scripture, the Holy Spirit made it possible for men to recognize Scripture.
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Lanny Carlson
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04/25/2012 17:42 |
Let's be clear.
I'm not saying that I don't consider the New Testament as Scripture.
I'm simply saying that the New Testament, when it was written,
didn't consider itself as Scripture,
that when its writers referred to Scripture
it wasn't referring to itself!
Also, the canon wasn't settled for three centuries,
and there was much controversy (and still is)
as to what books should have been included.
As for the quote from 1 Peter,
the source probably was from the Jesus tradition,
but the authentic letters of Paul are the oldest New Testament books,
predating the Gospels,and it wouldn't have made sense for Paul to be quoting a book which did not yet exist! (Also, you must know that most scholars doubt the Pauline authorship of 2 Timothy, as well as the Petrine authorship of 2 Peter.)
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Saint Grogan
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04/26/2012 12:34 |
Lanny wrote:
“I'm not saying that I don't consider the New Testament as Scripture.
I'm simply saying that the New Testament, when it was written,
didn't consider itself as Scripture”.
The Apostle Peter disagrees with you. This thread is on the topic of “saints.” I’m not going to get drawn into a two-front debate.
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Lanny Carlson
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04/26/2012 13:46 |
Then why did you introduce another topic when you suggested that veneration of the saints is a form of polytheism? And why did you introduce the idea that no revelation beyond the Scriptures is authoritative? I was responding to those provocative statements which YOU raised. Besides, I thought this thread had been put to bed a long time ago. And since when did you avoid a debate on any thread when anyone said anything with which you didn't agree? Let's stop the nonsense and move on, please. I had no intention of posting on this thread again until you raised those red flag issues.
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Saint Grogan
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04/29/2012 02:21 |
Marcie,
I’d love it if you would explain to me what ”box” am I trying to fit God into. Is it the one He has revealed to us about Himself from Scripture or maybe I’m trying to keep Him out of the one invented by a man centered religion?
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