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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Catholica
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03/27/2012 16:09 |
I am thankful that it is not up to me to decide who exactly "goes too far" or "doesn't go far enough". That's why Jesus gave us an authority on Earth, so we wouldn't be left wondering and having to decide the answers for those questions for ourselves.
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Craig from Illinois
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03/27/2012 20:58 |
Andre said... "Actually what the Bible doesn't support is the concept that everything that is true about God's plan for Christianity is written down in the Bible".
Wow! What an incredible and refreshing statement! I'm pretty sure that I've never heard that thought expressed. But I'm not sure what to do with this. There is a potential for overstepping this freedom.
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Saint Grogan
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03/28/2012 03:56 |
Actually, what is true is that everything that God intended to reveal to man concerning His plan for Salvation is written down in the pages of Scripture. God’s word is the only true authority. The Holy Spirit which dwells in every true believer will guide them into all truth otherwise a person is opening themselves up to deception.
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6)
I am quite aware that martyrs were venerated in times when the church was under persecution. I never said that they weren’t nor did I say that they shouldn’t. But in my opinion, this process of sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church is a joke. It is God who decides if a saints should get special status in Heaven (if that even existed), not some religious institution. Any saint who has made an extraordinary contribution or martyred for the faith should be automatically recognized for what they’ve done.
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Craig from Illinois
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03/28/2012 07:55 |
Just to clarify...
Are the "Saints" that the Catholic Church canonizes deemed to have special status in Heaven or just on Earth? I remember two other men wanting to sit on the right and left of Jesus and Jesus told them that it's up to the Father.
I agree that scripture is (somewhat clear) on God's will for salvation. I say "somewhat" because man has made all kinds of claims through interpretation that miss the mark on God's will. The canonizing of Saints issue isn't an issue regarding salvation for man. That's an apple vs. oranges argument.
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Catholica
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03/28/2012 11:13 |
Hi Craig,
The canonization of a Saint does not make any claims to a Saint's status in heaven, other than flatly states that we can know absolutely that they are there. It simply states the reality that God has already determined, and that such a person has attained the beatific vision.
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Catholica
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03/28/2012 11:22 |
Grogan, this verse 1 Cor 4:6 is interesting. Let's look at it, and I ask you a few questions.
First of all, translators have notoriously had a hard time with this verse because the grammar in the Greek doesn't make any sense. Many biblical scholars believe that the part about "don't go beyond what is written" is actually a gloss, a note written by Bible copyists to other Bible copyists. That being said:
1. When Paul says "do not go beyond what is written", which books exactly is Paul referring to? Almost certainly the Corinthians would have known such a comment (if it was actually part of what Paul wrote) would refer to the OT only.
2. Does Paul not contradict this statement with the following verse: "15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. " 2 Thess. 2:15. Here Paul instructs them to not only adhere to what is written but also doctrine transmitted orally.
3. Let's say that 1 Cor. 4:6 actually means "inspired scriptures". Ok, but who determines which scriptures are inspired? There were a good number of things written in that time, some even read in churches during the mass, that did not end up being included in the canon of scripture. There was wide debate over some of the OT books. How can Paul mean to "not go beyond what is written" if "what is written" has yet to be defined by men? And is not this process of determining "what is written" actually something that goes beyond "what is written"? There is no inspired table of contents for the Bible.
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Catholica
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03/28/2012 11:36 |
Grogan, you wrote:
"But in my opinion, this process of sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church is a joke."
Exactly what about the process of sainthood "is a joke"? If you read the description of the process I provided above, you will read that:
"Canonization does not "make" a person a saint; it recognizes what God has already done."
The accurate understanding of what canonization means then agrees with your follow on statement that:
"It is God who decides if a saints should get special status in Heaven (if that even existed), not some religious institution."
Yes, we agree. Canonization does not give a saint special status in Heaven, if that even exists. Canonization is simply an acknowledgement that a Saint is in heaven, a recognition of what God has already done. Canonization also does not refer to a "special status" of a person in heaven, just the fact that they are there.
Finally you wrote: "Any saint who has made an extraordinary contribution or martyred for the faith should be automatically recognized for what they’ve done."
Martyrs certainly deserve this, and that is the case in the Catholic Church: a martyr automatically receives the recognition "Servant of God" when they die. Yet the process to canonization is a good one, because Truth is important. If someone gives up their life, it is a great thing worthy of respect. Yet if people start venerating them and they wrote a bunch of heresy during their life, that could lead people astray. That is why a person's works are scrutinized before they are canonized - for the benefit of the faithful. It is a pastoral process. The "extraordinary contribution" has to be along the lines of truth, not heresy. And even so, many who have made an extraordinary contribution have died as heretics and they are certainly not to be venerated. For example, the early Christian teacher named Tertullian died in heresy. Some of his works prior to his apostasy are still used today in their orthodoxy, but not all are, and he is not a Saint.
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Catholica
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03/28/2012 11:38 |
To clarify, I wrote in a post two posts up:
"There was wide debate over some of the OT books."
What I meant to write was:
"There was wide debate over some of the /NT/ books."
There was debate among Christians over whether certain NT books were inspired or not. Some made the cut, others did not, even though they were orthodox.
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Saint Grogan
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03/28/2012 15:20 |
Unless they are important for this discussion, I’d rather we hang around the topic of the thread. The canon of Scripture and tradition are topics for discussion in themselves.
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Catholica
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03/28/2012 15:36 |
We can stay on topic.
Grogan wrote:
"She may be considered a “Saint” (with a capital S) according to Rome, however the Bible doesn’t support a special class of Christian voted on by a religious institution."
To which I say, that should not be a problem to a Christian. The Bible doesn't support a lot of things that Christians practice.
Grogan wrote:
"But in my opinion, this process of sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church is a joke."
To which I ask, what about the process makes it "a joke" to you? It seems that you have misunderstood the process itself, as if the Catholic Church is "elevating" a person in heaven. That is not so. Nor does the process of canonization involve simply "voting" on something by a religious institution.
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