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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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03/28/2012 18:52 |
Interesting discussion both and all, I'm not going to interrupt the current topic, but I do have a question or thought. I noticed that part of the Sainting process was to pray to the Saint and await an answer to that prayer. But I don't think I understand this. Isn't praying to one other than God (Father/Son/Spirit) not a breaking of the commandment not to have any other god's before us? Only the true God answers prayer, agreed? Help me understand what that means. Thanks!
John
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Lanny Carlson
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03/28/2012 21:58 |
We've had this discussion before,
and I've had this discussion with my Catholic son,
and as I understand it,
it's not a matter of praying TO the Saints but THROUGH the Saints.
It's a matter of seeking their intercession,
and in that sense isn't any different than asking someone to pray for us
or than when we pray for someone else,
which is what prayer requests on DAB are all about.
Of course, we are always free and able to pray for ourselves.
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Saint Grogan
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03/29/2012 04:56 |
Perhaps I do have a misunderstanding of the Canonization process and I am open for correction. If it were a matter of simply adding the title of “Saint” to an individual’s name much like when a person is knighted by the Queen of England gain the title of “Sir”, that is one thing. Traditions exist in denominations which do not contradict Scripture and there are what is known as “grey areas” in Scripture where a person just has to rely on ones “gut” feeling. What I have a problem with is Roman Catholic “veneration” of “Saints” goes beyond mere adoration, respect or reverence. My understanding tells me that Roman Catholic Saints are given special status in Heaven. They are endowed, let’s say with special “gifts” and act as intercessors on behalf of sinners. I believe that this goes against Scripture and promotes idolatry. I understand that the Canonization of Saints was an invention of man. Also, there is no way to know if a Canonized Saint is in Heaven or Hell.
I have read a few stories on Roman Catholic websites of so called miracles being performed by priests and other clergy in an attempt to meet some criteria for Sainthood. Some of the lengths they go to. Most of them have been discovered as hoaxes. Others, who knows? That’s what I find the most humorous because I feel that they’re doing all this in vain.
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Catholica
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03/29/2012 09:43 |
This concept of canonized Saints having a special status in heaven is false. There are no special gifts that canonized Saints have that non-canonized saints in heaven do not. When we die, we do not suddenly lose the ability to petition God for the needs of others. Rather we become /more/ effective in heaven; there we perfectly just and see God face to face. Everyone who is alive, whether on Earth or in the afterlife after dying in God's friendship has the ability to petition God for others. It is part of the gift that God gives His people. He loves that we help each other. Praying for one another is a form of love in community. Those in heaven have been made perfect in love and certainly are praying for people who have not yet attained beatitude. To me, the concept that people would not be praying for others in heaven strikes me as a turn toward selfishness and self-absorption, the opposite of the perfection we become in heaven.
Intercessory prayer is an interesting topic. Why do we ask others to pray for us? Can't we just pray for ourselves? (The answer is we can do both) If someone prays for us, and our prayer is granted, is it wrong to thank the person praying for us, to be grateful to them, to think that they played some part in God answering our prayers? Is it idolatry to grow in love for someone who has sacrificed a portion of their life to unselfishly ask God for something that someone else needs? Is that love and thankfulness to another person idolatry?
No, it's not. And every person who asks the saints in heaven for their intercession knows that ultimately prayers are granted by God's power, not the power inherent in another person. This is the same as if someone on Earth prays for you. No one worships the saints. We just really appreciate their friendship, their care for us, and the prayers they offer for us. They are our cloud of witnesses: they witness our struggles, and as they are one with us in the body of Christ, God has granted them the grace to be witness to the prayer requests that we ask of them to pray for us.
As for miracles, the miracles that concern the canonization process are scrutinized with the utmost care. Often hundreds of claimed miracles attributed to a saint are not used in the canonization process. Those miracles that are used are often medical miracles of healing. The Vatican intentionally picks out doctors who are both specialists in the field of medicine concerning the miracle in question and who are also atheists: those who would be the least likely to attribute supernatural power to anything. These atheist doctors then end up saying that the healings in question defy all explanations of science. That would make a healing supernatural. These are rock solid proven miracles, not hoaxes.
If someone was striving to see God's miracles in vain, or trying to know that someone is in heaven in vain, I personally would not find that "humorous", nor would I call it a "joke". I personally would find it very sad and desperate and would pity them, not laugh at them or mock them.
The reality of the afterlife and the intercession of the saints in heaven shows God's love for all his people in this divine reality of true communion that we are to come to know as Christians. It is never "Jesus and me" but rather "all of us in Jesus". We help each other to heaven, and we want the best for each other, and we do our best to love our neighbors and through the power of God for our salvation, bring each other to heaven.
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Catholica
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03/29/2012 09:47 |
Edit button: "Often hundreds of claimed miracles attributed to a saint" in the third to last paragraph should read: "Often hundreds of claimed miracles attributed to a saint's intercession".
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Catholica
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03/29/2012 10:05 |
John T, I almost missed your question. I'm glad that I went backed and looked.
In the older English language, the word "pray" meant simply "to ask". Think Shakespeare. One might have said something like: "What, pray, are you doing?" That's what prayer is - its simply an asking of something. To pray to God is to ask God.
Similarly, we ask each other to pray for God for us. In a sense we are praying to one another: asking one another for prayer. Just with God and those in heaven, that type of praying takes a different dimension, and that is that we need faith to believe that our requests are heard because we cannot sense whether they are or not. With the saints, I as a Catholic have faith in the communion in Jesus that we share, and through faith I believe that it is God's will that they can hear my requests just like DABbers do when I post a request in the prayer forum. Neither is regarding another person as God.
It is simply a Christian's understanding that miracles are performed by God. Yet wonderfully He performs them because of the requests of other Christians, and often miracles appear as if they were done by His people. That is why we can say that "a person performed a miracle". If a miracle happens, say, when a person lays hands and another is healed, that miracle is God's power, yet He chose to work through another person, and so we can rightly also say that that person performed a miracle.
So if I ask you to pray for me for a miracle, John, and a miracle happens, I don't think it happened by your power, but by God's power. Yet your prayer definitely took a part in that miracle occurring. If you hadn't prayed for me, perhaps God would not have granted that miracle. That is the power of prayer that we must believe in as Christians, that we can intercede for each other and that our prayers matter and effect things.
So asking the saints in heaven is not idolatry because we recognize that these are normal persons, not gods, and that the miracles are performed by God, not the Saint, while also recognizing the Saint's part in that miracle (or prayer answered), just as you would recognize another Christian's part in a miracle or prayer answered.
Does that help?
God Bless.
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Saint Grogan
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03/29/2012 13:56 |
Let’s start with the first point you made. You wrote:
“ There are no special gifts that canonized Saints have that non-canonized saints in heaven do not.”
So, when we die and should we wind up in Heaven, we suddenly have the ability to hear the “petitions” from anyone here on Earth? We suddenly have the ability to understand every language from every country and have the ability to hear multiple “petitions” and understand each and every one? Is that what you’re saying?
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Catholica
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03/29/2012 14:48 |
Yes, God grants all people in heaven that gift. He does not isolate us from our loved ones there, nor cut us off from loving our neighbors who need our prayers.
In heaven time is eternal, and no amount of simultaneous prayers on Earth could cause a saint to not hear a prayer. And God has granted the saints in heaven the ability to intercede for us on earth, as we become partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4, cf. Rev 5:8).
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Craig from Illinois
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03/29/2012 16:57 |
Just a quick note... I have really enjoyed the teaching of Catholicism by Andre. I am sure I have heard false Catholic teachings that have skewed my view of Catholics in general. But if what Andre is teaching is true and accurate, then I've had an incorrect understanding of Sainthood.
I am also glued to this thread as it morphs into a talk about prayer; specifically intercessory prayer from both the earthly living and the heavenly living. Thanks Andre for your skilled and knowledgeable contribution.
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Catholica
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03/29/2012 21:45 |
Craig, thanks for blessing me with that response. I do my best to share accurately. There are a lot of misconceptions out there, distortions and stuff. I have always tried to help dispel them and not water down what the Catholic faith is, even though many people find it sort of foreign to what they have come to know as Christianity.
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