Random Dialog

Andy Stanley Sermon Illustration on Homosexuality Prompts Backlash
In trying to love like Jesus does, the church can also seem inconsistent and leave people wondering what they're really about, Stanley said.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/mayweb-only/andy-stanley-homosexuality.html
Ray 05/03/2012 17:28

Replies:
Mike Mead 05/04/2012 10:11
As I listened to Andy, I thought that his stance was much like that of Bill Hybels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFhSfr13Y6o&feature=related I hope this copies correctly.
Ray 05/04/2012 10:54
thanks, Mike, I love BH.
Ted C 05/05/2012 12:55
It sounds like Pastor Stanley is trying to accept Scriptural injunctions against adultery while rejecting Scriptural injunctions against homosexual behavior. And by simply trying to apply the word adultery to homosexual behavior it sounds like he believes in relationships based on homosexual behavior, a notion which is not found in Scripture anywhere.

I realize many times churches can magnify the sin of homosexual behavior as if it's greater than any other sin. But all sin is detestable and put Jesus on the cross to die in our place. We shouldn't castigate people for sin when each of us will struggle with it until our dying day. Still, it's not loving to leave someone actively practicing their sin and make them believe God accepts their sin when Scripture clearly calls something out as wrong. In loving people, Jesus never encouraged people to continue practicing sin.

Scriptures which actually describe adultery places it as happening between a man and a woman.

Leviticus 20:10 "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Proverbs 6:32 "The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself does it."

Jeremiah 29:22,23 "Because of them a curse will be used by all the exiles from Judah who are in Babylon, saying, 'May the Lord make you like Zedekiah and like Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire, because they have acted foolishly in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors’ wives and have spoken words in My name falsely, which I did not command them; and I am He who knows and am a witness,' declares the Lord."

Matthew 5:31,32 "It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Scripture clearly condemns homosexual behavior.

Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach and say, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'"

Luke 17:1-4 "He said to His disciples, 'It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, "I repent," forgive him.'”

The rest of the New Testament echoes the same message.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 18-20 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God....Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

The civil codes in the Mosaic Law are no longer carried out by the civil government of the ancient nation of Israel. However the very real spiritual penalty of sin is death, and the concepts of right and wrong in the Old Testament still fully apply.

The only way someone can embrace homosexual behavior as normative is if they reject portions of Scripture. And Scripture itself says this is not an option.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Hebrews 4:12-16 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

So I think ultimately it sounds like Pastor Stanley is rejecting Scripture and trying to teach people to accept behavior that Scripture says is sinful and leads to death. This is incredibly sad, and what can you say when he probably attended a liberal seminary that taught him to embrace a humanist construct of being de-facto philosophically biased against accepting anything which might be of God when trying to understand history, science and the humanities.
Kris 06/02/2012 20:07
In total agreement with you on. By using the Bible and referencing different verses you made it easy for anyone to know God's commandment on this subject. Well said, Ted.
Ray 06/04/2012 13:02
"We must think carefully about how we reach specific individuals and groups with the gospel. We should not assume that we have to present the whole theological picture all at once to unbelievers."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/may/getting-to-the-crux-of-calvary.html?start=1

The rules are filled with power, but Jesus was always a doctor for the sick. We should always ask how we are reaching people, not how we can push them away. It's clearly only possible by walking in the spirit and pretty humbling.
Ray 06/07/2012 21:57
Matt 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Craig from Illinois 06/07/2012 22:21

Someones going to have to explain the metaphors in this parable. Are we sower, harvesters, wheat or weeds?
Ray 06/11/2012 13:52
I think we tend to want to "fix" the world, such as gay people by our power. Jesus has to teach us repeatedly that He will take care of things by his power. You know that is the only way that things will change at heart from your own experience. So why do we think anything else will be effective in changing people who are focused on sexual behavior as primary in their lives? Did the ten commandments change our hearts? No. Does church governance help? Nada. We just need to be available to him today and that's all we need to worry about:

Luke 9:51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them.

The world needs a doctor and you are his representative. So, what are we, weeds/wheat or growers? I don't know. What has he asked you to be today? Have we taken the time to ask him? I think the real important item in the Stanley story is, "The gay couple left the church, but returned later after the first man's wife chose to show them grace and move toward a relationship with them." So, who is the doctor in the story?
Leslie 06/12/2012 08:32
Hi Ray, :)

I agree with you Ray...I watched this Andy Stanley message LIVE...I still remember thinking how judgment comes before love in my own life and many lives of "Christians". I also disagree with making something out of Andy's “silence” on homosexuality. We chase people away from God sometimes with our judgments or requirements to be more like....who?? Us???...me???..It is so sad...Who is the doctor Ray?? Great question! We need to draw them to Jesus, He does the changing...we all have hardened hearts in some form or another probably. Things we won't give up or give in too...in order for complete obedience in Christ. My husband left me too. Not for another man, but I can tell you the idea that this woman was able to accept, forgive and welcome him back to church...wow! This is Jesus...I can honestly say, I don't think I am there yet...I have so much bitterness still today over my situation. When I heard this message it made me realize that my husband may have sinned and committed adultery, but I am still holding unforgiveness in my heart at times, in certain spaces.....I have many friends that are male who are homosexual. Andy's message helped me to not draw lines and create distance with them, but be able to love them right where they are and now some of them even talk to me about Jesus and my beliefs...ask me to pray for them. It’s beautiful. I don't agree with their lifestyle at all. It saddens me how much they are missing out on God's love for them, their identity in Christ...and His purpose for their life...but as I look at my own life...I see disobedience also...who measures sin??? Which sin is the worst or comes with absolutely no return path to Jesus...our un- comfortableness with someone's lifestyle needs to be addressed with our own hearts...we are designed to love them, not silence them.....Jesus does the heart surgery....we are to love one another….

Ray 06/12/2012 11:44
Beautiful, Les, well done.

Yeah, I don't love homosexuality. It does give me the creeps. I think that's because of some weird wounds that took place in my past. I don't even know how it came to be. I did a lot of hitchhiking as a kid. Fill in the blank. But when I look at my own failings I realize for sure there is only one way to make it in this life and that is not via some set of rules. Sure, homosexuality does take a hit in the book, but so does adultery, Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Do we toss all the men who have looked lustfully at a women from the fellowship? Hardly. I suppose we should by the logic deployed here. It is only by walking daily with the Lord that we have any hope of change. His love can reach and heal everything, everywhere, including our broken sexual desires.

Homosexuals are victims. So are men who commit adultery. So am I

Rom 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Cry freedom!