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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion

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Tate 10/28/2012 23:37
I suppose I made the distinction of "American Christians" because those are the ones with whom I'm most familiar, as well as the fact that it is the U.S. government that has the largest military presence in the world. This is not to confirm or deny anything about other Christians; it is just to focus on American Christians specifically.

And I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with the simple answer. Surely it is the case that a multitude of ills are allowed, but it would seem that war is one of the worst, if not THE worst. Another consideration I would like to add to the above questions is the paradox among what seems important to American Christians. If there is one thing they are united upon politically, I would say it would have to be the issue of abortion. They are typically pointed out as the most reliably pro-life group in the U.S. (whether this justifies state intervention is another matter). The paradox I see is that while being very concerned about the life of the unborn, most American Christians seem relatively unconcerned about the lives and well-being of members of the U.S. military (you will hear "Support the troops!" and other such platitudes among them, but I think real concern would imply not wanting them to be in war zones unless absolutely necessary) and even less concerned about the lives of foreigners who are killed wherever the U.S. military is sent.

The reason I am unsatisfied with the simple explanation is that I see many Christians who do, in fact, seem to have a close relationship with Jesus and want to live a good, peaceful life that is beneficial to those around them. What I'm not understanding is how those who could easily identify the Golden Rule, love your neighbor as yourself, be at peace with others as far as you can help it, etc. as teachings of Jesus seem unable or unwilling to apply them to the U.S. government.

Thank you for responding to my post. I pray that others will as well because this is a very important thing to me and feel like it is one of the preeminent issues facing the American church.
Lost Sheep 10/30/2012 21:41
1. I don’t think most Americans love war. I think that currently America seems to be one of the world powers and as such war goes along with that. I will say that post 9/11 America is a much different country and people. I suspect the same thing happened after Pearl Harbor when we officially entered WW2.
2. I would like to know your definition of self defense. I am actually surprised after reading your post that you would even justify self defense sine Jesus said “Turn the other cheek.” I would define attacking countries that host terrorist cells knowingly, to be self defense in this modern day.
3. I am not sure what war-mongering politicians you are referring too? I don’t recall any politician being a outright war-monger. I think most people vote (which on a side note is a nice freedom we have in this country that was fought for.) the politician that is on their side of their issue. I honestly think that most Americans Christians or not, would rather the government spend their time and resources on jobs and health care.

I will say that the American government is far from perfect. I agree that we have gone places and done things that we shouldn’t have. I also do think that the world is a much safer place because of America. It would be nice to live in a peaceful world, but I am afraid until Jesus returns that isn’t going to happen.

This bible also tells us that we are to obey our leaders and the bible also says that leaders have their position because God placed them there. Yes I know that statement can be taken to all kinds of places and can mean different things to different people.

I don’t really feel this is a preeminent issue facing the church at all in America. I think the twisting of God’s word to not hurt any ones feelings is the biggest issue the church faces. The American culture is one of inclusion. The Bible teaches the hope of everyone getting in but there is only one way to get in. Jesus said “If ye love me, keep my commandments”


Tate 10/31/2012 01:48
Lost Sheep, thank you so much for responding and furthering the discussion. Please allow me to address your points.

1. I don't think that Americans love war either, but it seems that the only other option would be to conclude that they are overwhelmingly apathetic towards it considering how costly it is in terms of lives and wealth (though the full cost is not felt right away because of wars being financed by debt and inflation). I don't see why being a world power, which you might have to define for me, implies that that power must be involved in multiple wars, especially those of choice. I would argue that the majority of foreign interventions by the US government are of choice, not of defense.

2. I wasn't justifying self-defense in my question, only positing that it would seem that the bare minimum for Christians would be to only use force in self-defense. If we accept that "turning the other cheek" implies complete pacifism (of which I am personally not certain yet), then it would seem even more so that Christians should be ardently anti-war.

I would have to ask what you mean specifically by "attacking countries." Does that include anyone within the country? Anyone possibly associated with terrorist cells? One might say that such is currently taking place in Pakistan; however, there are many more civilian deaths than terrorist deaths (http://livingunderdrones.org/) and this tends to create even more people militantly opposed to US foreign policy. It would seem that this is an act of aggression, not of self-defense.

But to answer your inquiry, I would define self-defense as a proportional use of force against someone who has aggressed against one's person or property. I am mostly in agreement with Murray Rothbard's explication: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard144.html

3. Of course, no politician will self-identify as a warmonger. But to use the current presidential election as an example: there is a president that has escalated one war, started another, and basically commits war-crimes in Pakistan, as well as extra-judicially assassinates US citizens. His main rival says that his foreign policy is too soft, that he himself would be tough on Iran, and that he would increase military spending to 4% of GDP when the US already accounts for almost half of all military spending in the world. The only major presidential candidate who even talked about scaling back US foreign interventions was Ron Paul, and perhaps to a lesser extent, Gary Johnson. All others pretty much either see war as business-as-usual, or want to extend it. The only reason I can see that one would not perceive them as warmongering is that the American people are already sold on being in a constant state of warfare. And personally, I see voting as giving people the illusion that they are free or have some type of control of the government (but that might be an issue beyond the purview of this topic).

While US foreign policy kills hundreds of thousands, I feel as though I cannot sit idly by and say, "Well, things aren't gonna be perfect until Jesus comes."

And I think Christians really need to contemplate upon what Romans 13 actually means. It cannot mean, "Do whatever a state official tells you to do." Indeed, Paul himself disobeyed whenever they contradicted God's commands. I would assert that US foreign policy would fit under such criteria.

And if this isn't an issue facing the American church, then I find that to be quite tragic. "Peace on earth, goodwill to men" are then just platitudes that mean nothing. The Church then seems to be impotent, not caring what happens beyond the sets of four walls and ceilings in which it meets. Surely there are internal issues we face, but if we can't agree that war is horrible and should be avoided, on what can we agree?
Laura 11/02/2012 19:35
Hi Tate, what a great question. Since I don't think I can directly answer your question, forgive me for attempting to by asking an opposing question. If American Christians are not apathetic to war and take a strong stand against it, would they be showing apathy toward the other atrocities in the world that have historically brought on American military action?

To me, the only way I can answer this is to consider that there must be a balance. America is a very powerful nation militarily and that usually involves a measure of responsibility as well. I don't know that I agree with going into countries that haven't asked for our help, but at the same time, to sit idly by while dictators slaughter their people goes against the Christian conscience.

In my opinion, not being a biblical scholar who can point you to a place in the Bible for an answer, I can only say that I pray that we have leaders who will consult the will of God before sending our own men and women (and money) to the battlefield.
Ted C 11/04/2012 23:54
Tate, I don't love war and I don't know any Christians who do. I'm interested in knowing, though, by what verses you come to the conclusion that Christians should be against all war.
Tate 11/05/2012 01:31
Laura, let me begin by expressing my gratitude in so graciously responding to my topic.

American Christians, by taking a stance against war, would not imply that they are indifferent to the plight of others elsewhere. Likewise, many American Christians will pray in solidarity with Christians who are persecuted elsewhere; they do not have to advocate violent resistance against the persecutor(s) in order to not show apathy.

I would also suggest that the decisions of American heads of state to go to war are rarely, if ever, due to humanitarian concerns. They are typically in pursuit of other goals: to create more powers for the state (the growth of the size of the government is highly correlated with war), to take attention away from domestic problems, to extend hegemony worldwide, and other ignoble ends. To mention a few recent examples: the ousting of Saddam Hussein in Iraq had little to do with the suffering of the Iraqi people; indeed, US-led forces enforced embargoes and destroyed water-sanitation facilities, leading to tens of thousands of deaths in the country. The war in Afghanistan was sold to the American public as an effort to fight Islamic terrorism, but most of the al-Qaida there have moved to Pakistan and the US remains there trying to nation-build. Even if foreign intervention were desirable (which I don't believe is), the military-industrial complex does not have such as its goal.

Secondly, I believe the proposed method of going about curing the world's ills is immoral. People are forced through taxation to pay for the killing of others, whether they like it or not. This alone, I think, should give Christians pause (we wouldn't think it right if people were forced to tithe, which we would all agree I presume, when done voluntarily, is a good thing).

Thirdly, I would have to ask which world conflicts would merit US intervention and which would not? There are plenty of dictatorships and people who are oppressed. Can we really expect that it will only take bombs, planes, battleships, and soldiers to change these things? The US is broke and cannot afford to fix all problems.

Lastly, I think the American public has been swindled into believing this idea that the US military is there not only to protect Americans, but is the benevolent policeman of the world (note the recent US Navy commercials which have the slogan, "A Global Force For Good."). This has been accepted mostly unquestioningly. I think if one does take the time to study, he or she will realize that the overwhelming majority of US intervention is not beneficial, but downright harmful. As well, if he or she applied the same consideration to others as he or she does to his or herself, they would find such actions unacceptable. For example, the current US president has assassinated US citizens with predator drones. Those in other countries might see such an act as that of a dictator, and rightly so. If those same people ousted the US president and replaced him with a man of their choosing, many Americans would be quite upset with this. And yet why is US intervention abroad not treated with the same scrutiny?

I think American Christians need to take a step back and realize that the US state is just that: another state. States are the biggest thieves, killers, and destroyers. War is the health of the state. We should remain wary of both the state and war.
Tate 11/05/2012 01:50
Ted C, I welcome the opportunity to respond to your inquiry. Thank you for posting.

I think verses such as Romans 12:18 ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.") and Psalm 34:14 ("Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.") suggest that peace is a worthy goal. Even the commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself I would take to imply that one should not initiate aggression against another. But what are wars, except those fought exclusively in self-defense, but extreme aggression entailing death of countless lives and untold destruction? Indeed, if there is anything we should be against, war is a likely candidate.

In the political discourse of American Christians (so far as I have seen, for the most part), wars of aggression are rarely spoken of as undesirable and something to be avoided. Rather, it seems that they are more concerned about the state's definition of marriage than they are about the US-caused death of civilians overseas. As well, it seems that most American Christians identify with the Republican party, whose presidential candidates overwhelmingly support expansion of the US military, more spending, and more intervention (with the notable exception of Ron Paul). To be fair, though, Americans aren't given much of a choice in this matter, since Democrats don't seem that interested in scaling back the military either. But, one can imagine how unpopular a pro-choice candidate would be among Christians; if there is any political tenet that holds them together, it is being pro-life. My bafflement is why these people who are ardently pro-life when it comes to the unborn aren't the same when it comes to the lives of US military personnel or the lives of foreigners.
Lost Sheep 11/12/2012 16:57
In my attempt to better answer your question, I have given it more time and thought. I will admit that initially I was offended by your question because I read it, I took it as an attack on America as a nation. I have no idea what your intentions were but I wanted to be honest enough to say that I was in fact offended. Not that I was correct to be, as I still live in the flesh and for all our faults, Americans are instilled with a great sense of nationalism and pride for our country. Now that I have my admission of guilt out of the way, here is my position. I am not speaking for anyone other than myself in attempt to convey how I view war.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. KJV This is one of the 10 commandments as we all know. So in the second book of the bible we are given this commandment. Then we turn to Deuteronomy 20 and find;
Deuteronomy 20: 12-17 12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: KJV
So here we see the opposite of what we were told in Exodus. Here the children of Israel are commanded to kill. Did God change His mind? This is not an example of self defense either. This was a nation conquering another nation under the leadership of God Himself.
Ecclesiastes 3:8 we are told 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. KJV
So is this yet another contradiction?
So lets look at the New Testament and see what Jesus said.
Mathew 5:38-39 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
This would seem to be what your view on war is. However if we read further Jesus also told us,
Mathew 25:6-8 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This would seem to indicate that Jesus realized that war was going to be on going. I do understand that this doesn’t mean that Jesus was saying it was good, but it also doesn’t appear that he meant it was bad. Just that this Is how it was going to be. Keep in mind that the God of the old Testament is the God of the new Testament. Nothing has changed other than perhaps goals.

Now I would like to show you how your views might play out in history. On 2 March 1936 Hitler ordered a small German force into the Rhineland that was controlled by France. The French and the rest of the world turned the other cheek and did nothing. Hitler himself admitted “ A retreat on our part would have spelled collapse.”
March 12/13, 1938 Germany announces the Anschluss with Austria.
September 30, 1938 British Prime Minister Chamberlain appeases Hitler at Munich.
October 15, 1938 German troops occupy the Sudetenland.
The world was still turning the other cheek hoping to avoid another war. Hitler had other plans.
January 30, 1939 Hitler threatens Jews during a speech.
March 15/16 1939 Nazis take Czechoslovakia
The world and America still wanted peace.
September 1, 1939 Nazis invade Poland
September 5, 1939 the warmongering Americans proclaim Neutrality!!!!
September 5, 1939 Canadians put down their hockey sticks and declare war on Germany
The war is going on but America is still trying to remain Neutral.
June 14,1941 America freezes German and Italian assets in America.
August 1, 1941 America announces oil embargos against aggressor states.
September 3,1941 First experimental use of gas chambers at Auschwitz
September 29,1941 Nazis murder 33,771 Jews at Kiev
December 7,1941 Japan Bombs Pearl Harbor
December 8, 1941 America and Britain declare war on Japan
December 11, 1941 Hitler declares war on America.

I could go on but the point is, in this case that in trying to avoid another war how many lives were loss? I don’t always agree with everything the US government does, but like it or not America is a world power. A international leader among nations. I believe that was the bible shows is how individuals should behave and not nations. I think what Christians should do is always pray for their leaders and hope that they are Godly men.
Tate 11/12/2012 22:41
Lost Sheep, please forgive me. It was not my intent to offend anyone. I am simply very troubled by all of the deaths of foreign civilians (as well as all destruction) that the US government causes. I see these as horribly unnecessary, a waste of resources, and not in the defense of Americans. What is also troubling is my perception that most American Christians are apathetic to this problem. I asked the above questions seeking answers to each of them.

[And I don't see why nationalism or pride for one's country implies being an apologist for the travesties caused by one's government. Cannot “America the nation” be separated from the US government?]

In Exodus, I believe the Commandment is properly translated as a prohibition against “murder,” not killing in all forms. But I would like to ask how you explain this apparent contradiction in the Old Testament. I think that it can be reconciled in the sense that God is Creator of all and is always Just. If we are talking about the Canaanites, the Flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah, the Bible states that those being vanquished were wicked and therefore deserving of death. And, yes, Jesus did say bad things were coming. It would seem illogical to assume that because He didn't directly acknowledge them as bad means they weren't bad. We're talking about famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and wars here; things so obviously horrible that they need not be described as such. When has there been a good famine? Jesus also says that Christians will suffer due to his name. Because He's said something will come to be without outright condemning it doesn't mean it's a good thing.

And you are incorrect in assuming that I was advocating pacifism (I was simply asking questions). I would like to offer an alternative view on WWII. British military historian John Keegan explained, “The Second World War, in its origin, nature, and course, is inexplicable except by reference to the First; and Germany – which, whether or not it is to be blamed for the outbreak, certainly struck the first blow – undoubtedly went to war in 1939 to recover the place in the world it had lost by its defeat in 1918.” Likewise, A. J. P. Taylor stated that “The first war explains the second and, in fact, caused it, in so far as one event causes another...Germany fought specifically in the second war to reverse the verdict of the first and to destroy the settlement that followed it.” And what had caused WWI to end in such a way to be so unfavorable to the Germans? It was US entry into the war. Churchill wrote of WWII: “This war should never have come unless, under American and modernizing pressure, we had driven the Habsburgs out of Austrian and the Hohenzollerns out of Germany. By making these vacuums we gave the opening for the Hitlerite monster to crawl out of its sewer onto the vacant thrones. No doubt these views are very unfashionable.” These problems wouldn't have come about but for American foreign policy. There was a big shift in US foreign policy in 1893 with the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy and subsequent annexation of Hawaii, without which there would have been no Pearl Harbor to be bombed. Indeed, American history would look much different if not for the US government's imperialism.

You previously said that America is a world power. I will repeat my question of what exactly does that mean? and why does it imply that that power must be involved in multiple wars, especially those of choice?

I would argue that the Bible very much does show how a nation should behave, hence all the focus on the nations of Israel. But even if that is in dispute, what are nations but collections of individuals? If it is wrong for an individual to steal and kill, is it not then wrong for a group of individuals (or a nation) to do those things? It seems that we are brought up to believe that governments are justified in doing things that we would absolutely condemn if done by an individual. If an individual steals money by threat of force, it is called robbery. Yet when the State does so, it is called taxation and excused. When an individual kills innocent civilians, it is called murder. When the State does so, it is called “collateral damage” and no one is held accountable. Why do we allow governments to get away with such evil things?

Lastly, what if I change the question to simply this: Why is there not more outcry among Christians that the US government is killing civilians all over the world? To make this outcry, it does not require one to be anti-war or a pacifist.
Lost Sheep 11/13/2012 21:14
The Definition for world power that I have found is such: A nation or other political entity having the power to influence the course of world events.

You don’t need to be sorry for my short comings. I have lived overseas for that past 20+ years and I am used to hearing negative things about America. I am sure most of the world did the same to the Romans and Greeks before them. I have a thin skin at times and should remember that we are first and foremost citizens of heaven.

I think the vast majority (Not all of course) of Christians tend to vote republican. This is primarily because in general they are conservative in their views and platform. They tend to be pro life ect… I think that most people either always vote on party lines or for the person that seems to have the most in common in how they think the country should act. I don’t think I can recall of anyone recently running and being voted for on the basis of war. As I recall during Obama’s first election he vowed to get the troops out of Iraq. I was very much against the invasion of Iraq myself and honestly don’t think we had a reason to be there. Looking back we were going through a very sensitive time as a nation. Our innocence was lost as we were attacked and we suddenly felt very vulnerable. Everyone wanted Bin Laden brought to justice and I agree that countless innocent lives were lost in our pursuit of him. I also realize all the innocent lives that are wasted and lost on the other side. How terrorist use the poor to be their bombs ect….
I am not for war even though I served in Desert Storm. I felt that we were just in helping Kuwait in that matter as did the majority of the rest of the world it would seem since we had a Arab coalition, which given our stance with Israel is amazing. I also think that we have a right as a nation if you will to protect ourselves and our interest. I also would be very nervous if we distanced ourselves from Israel. I still think that God’s hand is very much on Israel and I think “I will bless them who Bless you and Curse those who Curse you” is very much in affect.
I guess to me your question isn’t very valid since I don’t love war and I don’t think you will find any mainstream Christians that do. I can see that you are very passionate about this topic and I will agree with you that war is a waste, but as noted in history sometimes necessary and I am not saying that America has always been on the right side of that. That’s why Ill say it again that we should always pray for our leaders.
On a side note, how do you feel about our relationship with Israel? Do you think America should have an alliance with Israel? Do you think we should help protect Israel if they are attacked?
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