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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Helga
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06/09/2013 06:52 |
Hi Andre
Agreeing with Marcie.
I live in Namibia but lived also 20 years in South Africa. The rules and regulations that I am talking about are biblical, which is the law. The law is good but Jesus came so that He demonstrates to us, how to live.
I understand that information is perceived by each one of us the way we have grown up. Some are attached to their religion and the ways their religion goes about. One can dissect every word, sentence, meaning etc. I cannot argue in deep detail because I only reason out of my heart. Out of my heart meaning that I must always consider that not every one is like me, has grown up like me, lives how I live and has or has not what I have. I try never to judge but I always try to see the heart of other people.
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Ted C
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06/10/2013 13:01 |
Here is what I wrote to a friend on Facebook recently:
Remember there are two words for "discipline" in the New Testament (NASB). Paideia, Strong's G3809 in Hebrews 12:7-10, means the instructions from a father to a child, and stands for the actual instruction and teachings of the Father, God. It's non-negotiable and it's a light to our path and a lamp to our feet! The second is Gymnazo, Strong's G1128, in 1 Timothy 4:7,8. It means a self-imposed regimen for a pre-determined period of time to strengthen one's self. It's very important to discern the difference between something God actually requires - such as forgiving others - and something that we voluntarily do for a season as natural discipline - such as wearing a belt or going to bed at 11:00, etc. Sometimes church positions and programs ask participants to partake in Gymnazo, and it's all good. But it's separate from what God requires in His word and it's critical to keep that in mind. And then, confusing the matter is the fact that 100 years ago the word "discipline" in the English language meant "training". Now it has changed and means primarily just "punishment". In a search of the word punishment in the NASB there are five different words I found, and all of the references of all five words except for a single reference (the man caught sleeping with his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5) refer to those who are totally cut off from Christ and condemned eternally. So God's discipline is the concerned training of a loving Father. (Conviction is of God for the Christian, but not condemnation.) The punishment for your and my sin is not taken out by God on our own flesh, but was poured out on His Son Jesus who died and rose from the grave conquering death and sin!
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Helga
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06/10/2013 23:48 |
True words, Ted
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Catholica
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06/27/2013 14:51 |
Hi Marcie.
I agree that there are some people who think that following rules and regulations are what save them. If a religion teaches that, then that is a false religion. But not all religions teach that, nor even very many as far as I know; therefore the fact that some believe that shouldn't be a reason to condemn all religion in general. There are also people out there who believe that just "being a good person" (by their own measure, naturally) will save them. These include people who associate with no religion. Yet I don't hear anyone calling being-good salvation a "bondage" to be freed from.
Left to our own devices, we are actually more apt to believe /whatever we want to believe/ and as Christians, many justify those beliefs as being "biblical" when they may not be that at all. Any lies about God that we believe are bondage. It is the Truth that sets us free. If there is a religion which teaches God's own Truth, then being an adherent of that religion will set us free because we will be believing the Truth and living it.
Therefore we should be praying for /release from the bonds of deception and sin/ and praying that /our hearts be opened to the truth/ and to /grow in holiness/. That is true freedom from bondage. Bondage doesn't need to be associated so closely with religion. There isn't a 1:1 correlation. Bondage should only be associated with deception and sin.
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Marcie in MO
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06/27/2013 14:55 |
Perhaps this link will explain it better: http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/religious_spirits.php
Also, have you ever read The Screwtape Letters (C.S. Lewis)?
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Catholica
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06/28/2013 10:01 |
Hi Marcie, could you explain to me what you think about the article "explains it better"?
The only thing I can say is that, from my experience, this statement:
"It is said that religion and relationship don't get along"
is false.
I have not read The Screwtape Letters, though I have had an overview of the book and its contents. It sounds like a great book and have meant to read it. I think it would make a fascinating conversation. Is there a letter in particular that sticks out in your mind that we could discuss?
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Peter
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07/01/2013 15:41 |
Hello Andre,
I'd like to add what my own experience has taught me. It may take a bit until the connection with the subject of this thread becomes apparent, so I beg your indulgence...
I have been "between" church families for some time now. I have spoken to members of various churches regarding their particular "flavor" of Christianity, have researched all the major denominations to some extent, and have visited a few churches locally. One thing that I have found present in all of these was a spirit of condemnation. It seems (given the far from exhaustive nature of my search) like each denomination was formed because of some "error" that another denomination accepted as truth. It seems to me that each of these denominations, and even non-denominational churches, asserted that they have the "truth" and that other church bodies are worshiping something less.
It is this experience that led me to more, and deeper, bible study, prayer and meditation some years ago. I have a rather distinct view of Christ, that does not seem to fit in exactly with any denomination or church group that I have visited or researched. Essentially, I have formed my own "flavor" of Christianity.
Here's where it fits in with the thread (thanks for being patient if you read this far!) What I see as the "bonds of religion" are the spirits of condemnation that I encountered over and over while searching for a church family. Each family seemed to express that they thought they were "more correct" than other families in the clan, and certainly "more correct" than what I had come to believe. I must add here, that I am not opposed to reconsider my understanding of any part of the scripture, or of the scriptures as a whole. It was just such a spirit of exploration that led me to leave the family that I had been a member of most recently. When I no longer believed precisely what the Church (capital letter denoting the hierarchical organization as opposed to the body of Christ) taught, rather than try to understand my perspective, they simply told me that I was mistaken, and attempted to "re-educate" me.
Any Church or family that will not accept differences in opinion or interpretation over non-essentials, is one that I view as holding their members in religious bondage.
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Catholica
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07/03/2013 09:59 |
Hi Peter, it's nice to meet you, and thanks for adding your insight and witness. Don't worry about the long posts; I can hardly help being long-winded myself.
Truly it is one scandal of Christianity today that there are so many different denominations teaching different things. You have experienced it first hand while I only became aware of that state through what people have told me, such as yourself.
This "spirit of condemnation" that you have found; I am sorry that you have experienced that feeling that you or your beliefs have been condemned; truly God is calling his people to something more, to preach the truth with charity.
I don't think that a condemnation of a belief is outside of what we can read in the early Church in the Bible. For example, we read Paul write:
Galatians 1 (NASB)
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
I don't think that many would argue that what God said through Paul was wrong practice or heretical. But yet at the same time, look at what you experienced: several different congregations all teaching different things, and perhaps all practicing this passage in Galatians 1, yet not all of them can be correct in doing so.
Your thoughts? Was not Paul, in a certain way, teaching us to do this same thing which you have called "condemnation"? If so, then how can it be wrong in principle?
In my view, the only way it can be wrong is if whoever is preaching it doesn't have the same truth that Paul and the early Church was teaching, the same gospel and faith that Paul had already delivered to the Galatians, which is the same gospel and faith that was being promulgated everywhere in Christianity at that time. In that sense, your search for a Church family should be a search for the Church who is teaching that same gospel, and once you find it, you will necessarily need to accept what they teach with humility even if it conflicts with beliefs you have, no matter how strongly held.
Lastly, I agree that a Church should accept differences in opinion or interpretation over non-essentials. The doctrine delivered unto the faithful should promote a living understanding of God's word and is a guidepost to avoid heresy and not a limitation on thought. Yet, the only problem is that many different individuals and congregations disagree as to what the "essentials" are. It seems that it is necessary to have those first defined before we can really live what you propose (which I agree with).
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Catholica
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07/11/2013 11:13 |
I realized last week that this is the second year in a row that I have started a thread about "freedom" right around the 4th of July!
I listened to a podcast, for any who might be interested, about true liberty compared to what our country calls liberty. True liberty comes from God and starts within the hearts of men. True freedom is freedom to choose the good and choosing it!
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20130616-American-Liberty-vs-True-Liberty.html
Also the podcast references a papal encyclical on liberty. I am about 1/3rd of the way through reading it; it takes pretty intense concentration on my part to understand it, as it was written to bishops as the audience, but I think that it is a good testament to how at least the Catholic religion has clung to the traditional moral teachings of God and how that is true liberty, vs. the liberty that our country touts, which is actually license and leads to slavery: slavery to sin.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas_en.html
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Russ
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08/28/2013 10:43 |
I do not get on here much any more although I still listen to the DAB. I am posting some material I just started reading from a new book I encountered. I think these quotes I liked in the book for me deal with the issue of religion no matter the tradition we are all from, comfortable with, ext. Yes a lot of it has to do with hurts by people for many of us. For me Andre lately it has to do where God has led me in that personal relationship with Jesus. I am finding I do not fit comfortably in any denomination but thats ok. I can be where ever God wants me but I hold the traditions of men very lightly in how they interpret the bible and the message of Christianity. Anyway below are the quotes: 1. The Bible is a story, but it is also a debate. It records a debate and a conversation about who God is. There is disagreement about what God says, what God wants, and what God doesn’t say or want. This debate should not be minimized; it should be welcomed for its wisdom. To this day, we continue the debate and conversation, trusting that it deepens and expands our understanding of God rather than hinders it. I have no interest in trying to harmonize the message of the Bible. The wrinkles, conflict, and contradictions are an important part of the story— or debate.
2. The Bible records an ongoing expansion in human development. The Bible emerged over a period of several thousand years. And as it did, people encountered new life conditions, technologies, cultures, and religions. These interactions demanded that people grow, develop, and incorporate more complex and inclusive worldviews. This means that the parts of the Bible written in more recent history will reflect different beliefs and convictions than the parts written in a more distant history. What some call contradictions, I often read as a necessary and inevitable expansion in consciousness.
3. I read the Bible through Jesus mostly. Whatever disagreements about God are found in the Bible, I use Jesus as the final arbiter of the debate. He modeled the reality that some things in the Bible matter more than other things (i.e., the Greatest Commandment). I interpret nearly everything in scripture through his life and teachings. This may seem overly simple. It doesn’t solve every problem; sometimes it even creates new ones. But on balance, I’ve found it has helped me more than any other lens.
4. The Bible is God’s Word, but not exclusively so. Experience, tradition, creation, reason, relationship, suffering, joy, and countless other things may also contain and convey God’s Word in the world. The Bible is a medium fixed in time and space, but God’s Word is not bound by these things. We must be careful not to confuse God’s Word and the Bible as one and the same. The Bible contains God’s Word, but that Word is much bigger than the Bible.
Hipps, Shane (2012-10-16). Selling Water by the River: A Book about the Life Jesus Promised and the Religion That Gets in the Way (Kindle Locations 205-220). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.
These are just a few of the lenses I have consciously chosen. I probably use others without awareness. Certainly my life experiences have radically shaped my lenses on life. Everything that follows in this book is informed by these and other lenses. Over the years I have found most of the debates about the Bible, doctrine, theology, and religion are not actually debates about what the Bible says. They are in fact debates informed by competing unconscious lenses. Until we understand and name these hidden assumptions, our debates are destined for perpetual gridlock. Only when we understand what we and others see through can we push beyond the endless polarizations. By becoming conscious of the lenses that each of us has chosen, even if we don’t agree on them, we have a chance at a productive conversation about what the Bible says and what it might mean for our lives.
Understanding and owning our lenses helps us in an unexpected way. Once we see them we can actually start to get beyond them, past the merchant to the river itself, to the Living Water Jesus promised.
Hipps, Shane (2012-10-16). Selling Water by the River: A Book about the Life Jesus Promised and the Religion That Gets in the Way (Kindle Locations 221-228). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.
The disconcerting part about the life and teachings of Jesus is that he repeatedly pushed, subverted, and overturned the established beliefs and boundaries of religion. Jesus wasn’t opposed to the riverbanks; he just knew that eventually all rivers merge with the ocean. And no banks can contain the ocean. Jesus consistently stepped over the riverbanks to show us how to splash in the river. He knew the river would quench our thirst, and that it takes us somewhere incredible. Eventually the river runs and merges with the expansive and untamable ocean— the experience of life that resides beyond the limits of doctrine, boundaries, and fear.
Hipps, Shane (2012-10-16). Selling Water by the River: A Book about the Life Jesus Promised and the Religion That Gets in the Way (Kindle Locations 248-252). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.
The Christian religion is intended to preserve and perpetuate the good news of Jesus. But when it becomes overextended, when the impulse is to preserve the institution rather than the message, it begins to suffocate that message.
The difficulty with the Christian religion is that our institution is centered on the person of Jesus, and Jesus consistently undermined the natural inertia of institutions. He was the embodiment of pure, unbridled creative force. Creativity is often disruptive. It has little interest in preservation; it is about making new things and making things new. Creation by nature is always expanding, growing, and unfolding. Jesus upends, revives, and restores the malleability of our rigid religions.
Hipps, Shane (2012-10-16). Selling Water by the River: A Book about the Life Jesus Promised and the Religion That Gets in the Way (Kindle Locations 297-302). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.
One of the most difficult aspects of following Jesus is that he will often upend, strip, or remake the things we have grown attached to, dependent on, and comfortable with. Even the religion that bears his name is not immune from his subversive tendencies when Christianity becomes a force for preservation rather than creation. The excessive fixation on boundaries and preservation is often the very force that prevents people from finding the river.
While Jesus did not come to preserve or fossilize, he also didn’t come to throw out all conventions or boundaries. As disruptive as Jesus can be, he is not in the business of destroying the good that went before. He did not smash the stone jars. Instead he included the jars in the new thing he was creating. He used them in a different way. What Jesus did may have been offensive to those steeped in the traditions of religion, but it wasn’t destructive. It was profoundly creative.
Nearly everything in our lives has a tendency to become sticky. We get attached easily, and Jesus will gently but persistently help us release our grasp on what we think we need. He shows us how little of what we feel we need is actually necessary.
This miracle is a metaphor for the way God’s creative impulse operates in us, for how growth happens. We don’t have to leave everything behind; some things we will keep, some things will function differently in our lives, and some things we won’t need or even want anymore.
To immerse ourselves in this river of Living Water requires a kind of bamboo soul, one that has strength born of flexibility. The question is, how open and limber is our soul? How prepared are we for God to fill our sacred jars with extravagant wine? What if the things that offend us actually present a possibility for our growth? What if the loss of things we loved is a chance to reclaim the simplicity of God’s love? Our hearts must remain malleable to be able to receive God’s gifts."
Hipps, Shane (2012-10-16). Selling Water by the River: A Book about the Life Jesus Promised and the Religion That Gets in the Way (Kindle Locations 310-324). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.
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