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rhysy 12/03/2013 21:30
I apologise Catholica if I was a little strong. I didn't mean to offend.
Catholica 12/04/2013 10:26
No apology needed. I think that it is an important issue.

We considered carefully whether to "have santa" before my first child was born, and we too were concerned about the deception aspect of it all, especially if whether that deception might also cause them to mistrust us especially with regard to the beliefs of our faith.

We "made santa happen" after careful consideration. We knew that the kids would one day have questions about Santa. Like how he got down the chimney, like how he manages to deliver presents to all the kids on earth in one night. We decided to answer with a question: "what do /you/ think?" The kids found their own answers. But we also at the same time taught them facts about the spiritual life, most directly applicable, that "magic" is real, but it is always evil, the construct of devils. This created a cognitive dissonance in their minds that always led them to doubt whether Santa was real. And meanwhile while we would make Santa appear to happen, we wouldn't make effort to ensure that they wouldn't continue to believe in the myth, especially when they eventually started to doubt it. And when they asked the question insistently (at a certain age) we have always told them the truth, about Santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny. And at the same time assured them that God is very real.

It has worked well in our family so far. We have 3 kids as of yet, two of them have figured out the truth, and both of them are very very engrossed in their faith still. And they still enjoy Christmas and the gift-giving but we don't spoil them with it. And our religion helps us keep the focus on Jesus every day. Advent is a great season for that!
Catholica 12/04/2013 10:48
As for whether the Santa myth is antithetical to the faith, I tend to disagree. I disagree that it teaches self-righteousness, and I disagree with the idea that the concept of being good receives a reward and bad receives a punishment is contrary to the gospel.

We know of God that God disciplines sinners. The key punishment that comes to mind is that "God chastises every son that he acknowledges." God exhorts us to discipline our children. And I believe too that the Father in the family is meant to represent God the Father in heaven to the family in certain ways. And I believe too that the Gospel supports the idea that God does in fact reward good behavior. Most clearly, that reward is a higher place in heaven. So in my understanding, the gospel message is a clear one that includes reward and punishment.

As far as self-righteousness, I disagree that the Santa myth supports either of those concepts. There is nothing that the child does that earns them a gift. The gift is still a gift. And there is nothing that the child does that causes Santa to come or not come. Santa comes with a gift whether they are good or bad. And Jesus will come again whether we are good or bad, and at that time we will also receive either a reward or a punishment, although on a much grander scale. So there is no "self-righteousness" in the Santa myth. Also the Santa myth is one of grace. A kid would have to be pretty obstinately bad for a long period of time to receive a lump of coal from any parent that I have ever met. And in my beliefs about God, that parallels the Gospel as well.

And as for self-dependence, I believe that the true Gospel does include our necessary co-operation. It is never really purely "self-dependence" but it certainly does depend on what we do. An interesting study that one could undertake is looking at all the places where Jesus says the word "if". "If" is all over the place in the Gospels. Yes, we are wholly dependent on what Jesus did on the cross to be able to be able to be in heaven some day, but we don't believe in universalism. Jesus' sacrifice was infinite; he redeemed the whole human race. But that doesn't mean that we are all going to heaven. That depends on our response to the grace that He offers us, and He is always offering us the grace we need to live the mission and life that He has planned for us. We have to accept that gift from him to be able to live it. And living that gift, that grace, that life of God brings joy. And I believe that the Santa myth and the joy it brings kids mirrors that well. The waiting for Christ to come again is like the waiting for Christmas day, and the Catholic liturgy mixes the two quite well. The Santa myth is like practicing that "wait" that we have with anticipation. In a sense it helps foster the virtue of patience and fortitude. AND it helps us also think of others and their needs and desires and demonstrates the flow of grace, the flow of that gift, the giving of ourselves to others to share that joy with them. Without "Santa" we might tend to see Christmas at simply a human level (mere human sharing and giving to each other) and miss that "extra special gift from above".

So I believe that Christmas is a wonderful time of year, and especially if we incorporate these parallels into our explanation when we finally do expose the santa myth for the myth it is, I think kids can then through our witness come to an even better understanding of God.
rhysy 12/04/2013 13:44
Thanks Catholica. May a touch on a few things, then let's agree to disagree.

You said: "We know of God that God disciplines sinners. The key punishment that comes to mind is that "God chastises every son that he acknowledges." - If you are born again in Christ, He [Jesus] has taken your punishment. As Paul said there is no condemnation in Christ. God lovely, I guess, guides his children into regeneration, but this isn't punishment.

Secondly, and a minor point, you said - "I disagree that the Santa myth supports either of those concepts. There is nothing that the child does that earns them a gift." The message of Santa, according to Frank Sinatra, is that he [Santa] is checking his list, finding out who's naughty and nice. Yes, no parent is going to dump a lump of coal on their child, but the message is, if you are good, you will receive your gift. The gospel, however, teaches that we are all evil, and through Jesus, we are reconciled back to God, i.e. grace.
Lanny Carlson 12/04/2013 13:46
Andre, you and I disagree on many things, but I truly appreciate your comments here. With our first child, we downplayed Santa the first few years, but it became an important part of our Christmas after that. And as you know, our son is now in seminary - so much for Santa destroying his faith! I especially appreciate your emphasis on the parallels. I, too, earlier remarked on the message of grace in Santa. And though we will both be accused ofsyncretim (zee the other currently active discussion), I think the comparison is valid. Have a truly merry and blessed Christmas!
rhysy 12/04/2013 18:57
Catholica is not a syncretist. Let's agree to disagree.
Lanny Carlson 12/04/2013 20:41
Fair enough! Have a blessed Christian!!
Claire Stanniland 12/08/2013 19:56
There I was thinking that Santa as we know him was a Coca-Cola advert!

More seriously, I believe that most children, given good education by their parents, learn to tell the difference between a fictional story and reality. Our Lord used parables (by definition invented stories) to illustrate points. Allegorical stories like the Narnia Chronicles point to a deeper reality. I am currently reading Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Although Tolkien makes clear in his introduction that it is not allegorical, you don't have to read far to detect his Catholic principles.

So, I believe that Santa can be used as a fun story that illustrates a principle as long as he doesn't interfere with the main message of Christmas, which is, of course, Jesus.
rhysy 12/08/2013 20:31
But why would you want to use him as if he's real. You are lying your kids
John T 12/25/2013 22:04
Interesting discussion. As for my household, we don't give gifts from "Santa" - but rather from family/each other. Our children do sit on Santa's lap at our work children's Christmas party, so they know about it, but know that he's pretend. Santa doesn't bother me too much, we relate him to St. Nicholas, and enjoy the veggie tales St. Nick story. I struggle more with Halloween than Santa, since it has truly become quite an evil night with all the horrible decorations. Santa and Christmas are pretty joyful, no need to have children look away from the decorations to prevent bad dreams. We even have a light up snowman in our yard, which really isn't a Christian symbol of Christmas either, but just a snowy decoration.

I know I've rambled, but that's my two cents. We don't promote it, but don't avoid it either.
A Merry Christmas to you all!
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