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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion

Heaven vs. Earth?
I listened to a recent Greg Boyd podcast from Woodland Hills http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/the-fact-of-the-matter. The focus of the sermon is the misperception of the separation of Heaven and Earth (physical vs. spiritual). This also coincidentally matched very closely to the sermon at my church the same weekend (influence by the Great Councilor). Anyway, I think my default (maybe ignorant) is the idea that someday we will "escape" this broken world and transport to heaven (a distant heaven). The recent teachings I've listened to talk more to the idea that there isn't a separation (or not as I've understood it). This is a newer concept or teaching to me. I guess I understood it somewhat from the Lord's Prayer "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". The goal being bringing heaven to earth (but this still sounds like the idea of separation). Some of the scripture used is Romans 8:19-24 and Rev 21:1-4.
Sorry, if I'm not very good at explaining this (Boyd is a much better teacher). Just wondering if anyone has more input, books or podcasts that come to mind that further explain this teaching?
Thanks family.
thumbtooth 05/27/2011 14:25

Replies:
Calico 05/27/2011 18:49
Brodie!!!!

Hugs, dude. :-)

I listened to Greg Boyd last week too (of course). This concept is something I have been aware of and familiar with for some time, though by no means an expert.

For me, for starters, let me point you to the ongoing dialog on the "Love Wins" thread that Brian Hardin started, which has conversations on it dealing with Rob Bell's book of the same name, "...about Heaven, Hell, and the fate of every person who ever lived." If you pick up the book, you will see resonances of much of what you are asking about, although from a questioning perspective (ie. the author "prompting you to ask yourself questions which may challenge previously conceived perceptions about Heaven and Hell"). It's a long thread, but there's much to discuss there, and it might be cool for you to pick up the book to join in (either agreeing or disagreeing, whatever; but feel free to jump in ;-) ).

As well, from The Meeting House (www.themeetinghouse.ca), check out "Beyond The Grave: What Happens After You Die?" from November 2008 (four part series; titles are "Judgement Day," "Heaven On Earth," "Hell," and "In The Meantime"). There are notes as well, to follow along with. Not sure if they're listed on iTunes, but if not you can stream them online from TMH website, or manually download them in .mp3 format (right-click, "Save Target As..." to your download folder).

Cool, this might be a nice companion thread to Brian's!

Praying with you, Brodie,

Tom
Calico 05/27/2011 18:50
oh BTW the "Love Wins" thread is found in Random Dialog
Catholica 05/31/2011 10:35
This is actually ancient teaching. I could probably dig up a lot of resources that corroborate a lot of what he says, but its Catholic stuff so I'm not sure that you'd be interested. Let me know if you are.

I think his teaching flies in the face of the doctrine of the rapture.
Calico 05/31/2011 19:42
Heya Andre,

While I can't speak for Brodie, you know me somewhat well enough to know that "the Catholic stuff" is always of interest to me.

Whatcha got? :-)

Tom
thumbtooth 06/04/2011 08:05
Tom and Andre,

Thanks for the responses.

Tom, I did start listening to the Meeting House podcast "Beyond the Grave". So far I've listened to 2 or them. I really am liking them. Thanks for the recommendation. I also think it's a good primer for the upcoming "Heaven vs. Hell" Woodland Hills event (live podcast June 7th). I also looking into the Rob Bell book, it had mixed reviews on Amazon, but I'm still thinking about checking it out.

Andre, like Tom, I'd be interested in hearing about your resources. I like reading from your vast knowledge you contribute on the forums. I agree that the coinciding messages may have been an indirect response to the rapture prediction, but I was also a bit curious if there might be another influence (other than the Bible, of course) that prompted similar messages at my church and WH.

Walk strong bothers.
John T 06/19/2011 20:50
Randy Alcorn also has a study of Heaven, a book he's written. I have yet to read it but have read several of his other books and highly respect him. I would consider his book to be a good resource.
John
Catholica 06/20/2011 12:57
Man, I'd forgotten about this thread, and now that I come back to it, I have to recollect my thoughts. Drat!
Kim In Sea 06/20/2011 23:59
A book that might interest folks commenting on this thread is one I started reading last week (so I can't yet comment on the entire contents) and am finding fascinating and enlightening: N.T. Wright's "Surprised By Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Ressurection, and the Mission of the Church." What I've read so far directly speaks to Thumbtooth's initial post. Hope this is a helpful reference as we all keep thinking this through in the light of the whole of scripture.
Blessings!
Calico 06/21/2011 09:03
Hey all,

Kim (nice to meetcha!), that IS an excellent book from N.T. Wright. Also see the same author's book "For All The Saints? Remembering The Christian Departed" http://www.christianbook.com/all-the-saints-remembering-christian-departed/n-t-wright/9780819221339/pd/221333?event=CF. It's a brief book (96 pages) but makes it's point well; and could also be of interest to further the learning that Brodie's started discussion on here.

Andre, "Man, I'd forgotten about this thread, and now that I come back to it, I have to recollect my thoughts. Drat!"

Whatcha got for us? :-)

Praying with you all,

Tom
Katherine 08/04/2011 18:14
How about "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", as said by Jesus? (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7). I really love this idea, as in times of stress or difficulty I can take it as a "literal metaphor", and I close my hand around Jesus's (imagined) hand, and I'm greatly comforted and/or strengthened by knowing He is so close. It also reminds me that mine are the hands that bring the kingdom of heaven to the here and now, in my kitchen or my car, with a friend or with a stranger. That, too, is both comforting and empowering.

On scrabbling around a bit in Schofield's Notes 1917 (in the "Commentaries" section of my Laridian PocketBible) I find that:
"The kingdom of heaven has three aspects in Matthew:
(a) "at hand" from the beginning of the ministry of John the Baptist (Mt 3:2) to the virtual rejection of the King, and the announcement of the new brotherhood (Mt 12:46-50)
"(b) in seven "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven," to be fulfilled during the present age (Mt 13:1-52) to which are to be added the parables of the kingdom of heaven which were spoken after those of Mt 13, and which have to do with the sphere of Christian profession during thisnage;
"(c) the prophetic aspect--the kingdom to be set up after the return of the king in glory. Mt 24:29 - 25:46; Lk 19:12-19; Ac 15:14-17. [See"Kingdom(N.T.)" Lk 1:33; 1Cor 15:28. Cf."Kingdom of God", see Schofield Note: Mt 6:33.]"

I thought this was helpful in that it shows us that the kingdom of Heaven is not a one-dimensional thing, but that it has several aspects to it and transcends time. I'd better go and look up and ponder those references if I want to understand things better; thanks for raising the point, Thumbtooth; it's too easy (for me) to swallow teachings without chewing them, so to speak, and to be woolly thinkers, or worse, not think about these sorts of issues at all, now that the years of vitally earnest and urgent student discussions are long gone!
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