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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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07/14/2011 19:56 |
Heya Christopher,
Are there no persons on the earth that are disobedient? And if there are, what is done with them?
Praying with you,
Tom
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Calico
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07/14/2011 20:12 |
Actually, Christopher, let me re-frame that question just a little bit, if I may, by your good grace:
"Are there no persons on the earth that are disobedient? And if there are, how would you describe them? What is done with them, if they meet this description?"
Thanks, hugs
:-)
Tom
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Davidwayne Lackey
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07/14/2011 22:54 |
1Pe 2:24 He personally carried our sins in His body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By His wounds you are healed.
1Pe 3:18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but He died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but He was raised to life in the Spirit.
1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God's household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God's Good News?
1Pe 4:18 And also, "If the righteous are barely saved, what will happen to godless sinners?"
2Pe 3:6 Then He used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
2Pe 3:7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
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Calico
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07/14/2011 23:12 |
Well, I've been looking at those passages tonight too, as well as a few others... :-)
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TRWord
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07/15/2011 13:50 |
Tom wrote:
Are there no persons on the earth that are disobedient? And if there are, what is done with them?
==========================
Tom I’m not saying that disobedient persons do not pay the consequence of their actions I’m saying that believing that the consequence comes from God is the old understanding; the old covenant.
With What Measure Ye Mete.
In His Sermon on the Mount Jesus taught that there is a reciprocal action or reaction to whatever we do. We reap what we sow.
God is love.
And all our Father’s commands even the ones we don’t understand “eg Genesis 2:17” are to direct us. It’s the action of a loving Father trying to guide His off spring from that which brings painful consequences. When we disobey we reap these consequence but they are not punishment from God.
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Ted C
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07/15/2011 20:50 |
TR,
You can't have love without the nature of Love. He who is Love is also Holy, Righteous, and Faithful. You are suggesting that Love means "anything goes" in terms of human behavior, nothing is right or wrong, and no human behavior ever need change, only our perceptions of the behavior.
Nothing could be further from the Truth of Scripture and Jesus' own words:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:17-30)
A.W. Tozer does a brilliant job of describing the error of trying to take a single attribute of God and elevate it above His other attributes to the point where one's understanding of it becomes perverted:
"Among the sins to which the human heart is prone, hardly any other is more hateful to God than idolatry, for idolatry is at bottom a libel on His character. The idolatrous heart assumes that God is other than He is - in itself a monstrous sin - and substitutes for the true God one made after its own likeness. Always this God will conform to the image of the one who created it and will be base or pure, cruel or kind, according to the moral state of the mind from which it emerges. A god begotten in the shadows of a fallen heart will quite naturally be no true likeness of the true God. 'Thou thoughtest,' said the Lord to the wicked man in the psalm, 'that I was altogether such as one as thyself.' Surely this must be a serious affront to the Most High God before whom cherubim and seraphim continually cry, 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of the Sabaoth.' Let us beware lest we in our pride accept the erroneous notion that idolatry consists only in kneeling before visible objects of adoration, and that civilized peoples are therefore free from it. The essence of idolatry is the entertainment of thoughts about God that are unworthy of Him. It begins in the mind and may be present where no overt act of worship has taken place. 'When they knew God,' wrote Paul, 'they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.' Then followed the worship of idols fashioned after the likeness of men and birds and beasts and creeping things. But this series of degrading acts began in the mind. Wrong ideas about God are not only the fountain from which the polluted waters of idolatry flow; they are themselves idolatrous. The Idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true."
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TRWord
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07/16/2011 06:11 |
Ted said: “You are suggesting that Love means "anything goes" in terms of human behavior, nothing is right or wrong, and no human behavior ever need change, only our perceptions of the behavior.”
Ted I am not suggesting that love means anything goes this is what you are hearing because you continue to disobey the scriptures.
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal. 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
I am suggesting that love is the answer.
On the one hand you can remain in bondage to the laundry list of things in human behavior that need to be changed.
On the other Jesus said that if you treat others the way you’ll like to be treated then you’ll have accomplished all this with one act of love.
Matt. 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Notice Paul is saying the same thing here that all the law is fulfilled by love.
Gal. 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal. 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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John T
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07/16/2011 10:36 |
Hi Christopher,
I too, in your posts, see you claiming that sin and evil do not exist and that love is all there is and that we only see sin because we choose to believe it exists. Ted does not continue to disobey the scriptures, rather I see you continuing to twist them to fill your purposes. Consider the command "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" - this command just by itself implies that there is such a thing as non-love, as the opposite of love, as hate, as evil. If evil did not exist then there would be no need for such a command to do good, since everything would be good. The principals you are suggesting cast out half the Bible's teachings, such as putting on the full armour of God to stand against the evil one, and to turn from evil and do good, and various other warnings. Think about it -- you cannot deny that the Bible teaches us to avoid evil and be more Christlike. The very scriptures you use to prove your points work against you.
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TRWord
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07/18/2011 05:45 |
John
You said: “The principals you are suggesting cast out half the Bible's teachings, such as putting on the full armour of God to stand against the evil one, and to turn from evil and do good, and various other warnings.”
But isn’t this the same principles that Jesus taught. He said if we do unto others what we would like done to us that this is the law and the prophets.
The law and the prophets is the old testament. In other words this single commandment will satisfy all the teaching of the old testament.
Matt. 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Unfortunately your commitment to the belief in the war between good and evil prevents you from seeing this truth.
We are in Christ if we place our faith in His word instead of the common misconception.
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John T
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07/18/2011 12:16 |
Jesus also stated that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfil it. He also frequently referred to the old testament. He clearly placed importance on it. Cutting out 2/3 of your Bible by tossing away the old testament is not what Christianity is about. There are dozens of stories of Christ, foreshadowing and other things in the old testament that are there for our good. Consider Abraham and Isaac - this story is a picture of what God was to do with his only son. Consider Jonah, and all the stories that show God strong. The New Testament would not make sense without the old.
"Unfortunately your commitment to the belief in the war between good and evil prevents you from seeing the truth" you said. The Bible teaches that Jesus was tempted by the evil one - in the new testament. The Bible teaches that Jesus cast out demons, in the new testament. The book of Revelation is clearly about the Battle, in the new testament. Your commitment to the absence of evil prevents you from seeing the truth.
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