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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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06/28/2011 08:26 |
Thanks for that link Sue.
I read the doctrine of the First Friend Church and all I could say is Wow! I never knew much about the Quakers beliefs but I always found that their lives imaged the teaching. Now I see why.
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jonathonbyrd
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06/28/2011 10:39 |
TR you said,
"We had become separated from our Father cause by a violation of the truth." Nowhere in the bible does it say this, as a matter of fact is actually says that we HAVE BEEN and CURRENTLY CONTINUE to be separated from God because of our iniquities. The actual DOING, not just the knowing.
TR the interpretation that you're suggesting NULLIFIES the commandments of GOD!!
MARK
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
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TRWord
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06/29/2011 08:11 |
Jonathonbyrd wrote:
TR you said,
"We had become separated from our Father cause by a violation of the truth." Nowhere in the bible does it say this, as a matter of fact is actually says that we HAVE BEEN and CURRENTLY CONTINUE to be separated from God because of our iniquities. The actual DOING, not just the knowing.
TR the interpretation that you're suggesting NULLIFIES the commandments of GOD!!
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Jonathon
You believe that we are separated from God because of our iniquities or because of our sin.
If this was true we would have no need for the Lord. All we would have to do is refrain from sin and the law “the commandments of God” would have been sufficient. But It’s written that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.
Why?
Because we are born in sin. We sin because the cause of sin is in us.
The law taught us obedience but it did not remove the cause of sin.
Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
What is the cause of sin?
Jesus came to reveal and to annul the cause of sin.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Free from what? Free from sin.
He also said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If the truth shall make us free of sin and if it’s only through faith in the truth in Christ that we will be reconciled to the Father isn’t it clear that it’s a violation to the truth that is the cause of sin and that which separate us from the Father.
When we fail to acknowledge the cause of sin we believe in disobedience and punishment and we exist in a state fear of God’s wrath. This is the old covenant.
Through faith in Christ we come to know the truth. The cause of sin is removed, and we are reconciled to the Father. We then receive the gift of life and the forgiveness of sin by His grace and we come to know Him as love. This is the new covenant.
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Ray
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06/29/2011 10:58 |
You are consistent in your posts that knowledge is preeminent as in "only through faith in the truth in Christ." This faithful hook to human knowledge, which is at the core humanism, is where you and I part. The truth IS a person, not the knowledge he imparted. I know this first hand. I agree, having what he taught is very helpful, but only in as much as it lets us see Him, what He is doing, and what part we have to play. The last time I wrote this you asked if I was denying scripture because there are verses that talk about Jesus teaching. You ignored my word "ultimately," I suppose you did this because it does not fit your narrative of reality.
I'll be the first to agree the church has failed to walk with Him. But God loves us and picks us up and we get to try again to live the only way that is possible, by his Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Peter said, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name
of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will
be given the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is for you and your
children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter
where they live."
Paul didn't amaze people because of his knowledge, and he had a lot of it. Acts 9:22 "Saul preached with such power that he completely confused the Jewish people in Damascus, as he tried to show them that Jesus is the Messiah." The reason he stunned them was that Saul had met the Living God and he was compelled to let Jesus, who
is the truth, live through Paul.
It is not our knowledge that will bring us home. It is the mighty Three. They are the only way it will happen. Apart from Him we can do nothing, higher knowledge or not. All we have to do is ask, humbly.
Luke 18:14
“... For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
It is perilous to ignore this.
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Ted C
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06/29/2011 13:37 |
TR, you believe that there is no evil and no act is evil. Traditionalists just believe, erroneously, that some acts are evil. Correct?
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Ray
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06/30/2011 09:37 |
Deepak Chopra, new age guru to the stars writes:
"As regards evil, the new thing you must create is the absence of duality. No more dark versus light. No more fixed boundaries to divide safe from unsafe, God from Satan, self from non-self. As these boundaries fade, nothing remains but one reality, a boundless
state known as god."
TRW is more subtle: "There is no room for Him (God) and anything or anyone else."
It really is an important distinction between the new age and Christ. Love is not real big in that religion. I tried to get TRW to express how love fit in, if it is all one and there is no opportunity or point for relationship, which is what the Three in One are all about.
I've been thinking about the whole subtle thing going on here and it this relationship idea that is missing in the TRW narrative. He asks "why did Jesus command us not to resist it (evil)" in order to make the point that Jesus teaches evil doesn't exist. He quotes Jesus here, Matt. 5:39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Given the assumption that evil does not exist as his starting place then it is logical that Jesus must be saying the same thing.
The thing that is missing from the equation is relationship. Jesus was saying exactly the opposite, he is focused on the relationship. He was saying don't return evil to someone who embodies it. You have a relationship with that person. It is what he taught Peter in the garden. Peter was going to return evil to the mob with his sword and Jesus called it for what it was, evil.
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TRWord
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06/30/2011 15:24 |
Ray
You said:
“You are consistent in your posts that knowledge is preeminent as in "only through faith in the truth in Christ." This faithful hook to human knowledge, which is at the core humanism, is where you and I part.”
How could “faith in the truth in Christ” be human knowledge? This escapes me.
You also said:
“It is not our knowledge that will bring us home. It is the mighty Three. They are the only way it will happen. Apart from Him we can do nothing, higher knowledge or not. All we have to do is ask, humbly.”
You seem to be having quite a problem with knowledge you seem to have a sinister understanding which I just don’t get, since knowledge is spoken of again and again in the scripture.
Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
You seem to think that there is something called human knowledge that in your words is; “at the core humanism.”
According to the prophet Hosea it’s the lack of knowledge that is the problem.
Hos. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Again you are saying totally against what is written that “ultimately” Jesus was not teaching us.
You said:
“The truth IS a person, not the knowledge he imparted. I know this first hand. I agree, having what he taught is very helpful, but only in as much as it lets us see Him, what He is doing, and what part we have to play. The last time I wrote this you asked if I was denying scripture because there are verses that talk about Jesus teaching. You ignored my word "ultimately," I suppose you did this because it does not fit your narrative of reality.”
You better believe that this does not fit my understanding of the word. To believe what you are saying I would have to ignore the entire gospel.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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TRWord
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07/01/2011 11:10 |
Ray
The doctrine of mainstream christianity precludes any possibility of love.
Jesus told the rich man to go sell all that he own first.
Why?
Because the quest for prosperity is our primary focus and is the main cause of all our inhumanity towards each other.
Ideas such as Christian Entrepreneurship, the Property Gospel and Christian Conservatism are quite compatible with mainstream doctrine.
And the New Age religion was started by Shirley MacLaine for the rich and the famous.
The disciples of Jesus Christ obey His commandments.
Matt. 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Matt. 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
You make serious blunders when you lump people together because they have a belief that is different to yours.
Jesus said:
Matt. 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
If you were a follower of His teaching you would know this. You would also know that He said those who have choosen wealth have already received their reward.
There is no desire that’s more to our detriment and which precludes love than the desire for riches.
1 Tim. 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1 Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
You ask me how love fits into my belief.
Jesus taught His disciples.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Discipleship to His teaching is founded on the commandment that we love each other as He loved us.
You keep speaking of the Three in One but how could you know the One when you refer to the omnipresence of God as a word game.
The omnipresence of God is a revelation from the Father. Jesus said that when you have received that revelation.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Discipleship to our Lord Jesus Christ is founded on faith in His message. The message of the gospel. We believe that the new covenant is a new relationship between us and our Father in place of the Law. We believe in the kingdom of God as revealed by Jesus Christ. We believe that God’s kingdom can be received by those who have accepted the revelation of the Holy Ghost the presence of the Father in us.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
We believe the Apocalypse.
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev. 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
We do not have to wait for the judgement of the world to know the truth it been revealed and we have received it through our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Our judgement is not according to what we see in the world but according to the truth that an omnipotent God reigneth.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
This is how we differ from both mainstream christianity and the new age religion.
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Ted C
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07/01/2011 12:23 |
TR, you seem to be purposely ignoring my questions.
King James Version:
Hebrews 9:15-26 "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.' Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Hebrews 10:19-31 "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The LORD will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
So which is it? Do you believe these passages in error, intentionally deceptive, or that the translation cannot be trusted?
Also, you believe that there is no evil and no act is evil. Traditionalists just believe, erroneously, that some acts are evil. Correct?
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Calico
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07/01/2011 13:17 |
Sigh...
Chris, I know you were intending to write to Ray, but please, brother, this is an entirely false generalization to make: "The doctrine of mainstream christianity precludes any possibility of love."
The statement is too broad, too dismissive, too overly-generalized, and thoroughly untrue. And further things in your post are made to look quite silly when you then go on to paradoxically state "You make serious blunders when you lump people together because they have a belief that is different to yours."
I hope to say to you that I pray to convey the above in a posture of brotherly conversation, Christopher. There is no definitive reality in those statements.
Sorry to have intervened directly after your post, Ted. It is good for you to restate your questions. I had thought it worthwhile to have written my above words, though.
Praying with you all,
Tom
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