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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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07/06/2011 18:29 |
Christopher, brother, as has been discussed on various other threads we've interacted on, there is no logic in the false premise you've posited here:
"...mainstream believers cannot accept (that a being called Satan does not exist and that evil does not exist, via God's omnipresence) because they need room for the devil and the existence of the devil precludes the omnipresence of God."
This is a fallacy. Your position on what you've attempted to describe as "omnipresence of God" is not at all encapsulating of a holistic theology nor spirituality, Christopher; in fact, it is actually too limited in it's conception, and cannot logically lead to a conclusion that support the weight of additional biblical fact.
This false premise has been discussed on various other threads, and reference to the disputing of that false view should now be mentioned on this thread as well, for information's sake of all who are reading along/who are participating in the thread.
Also, my friend, if possible, in as succinct a manner as you are able, can you define the term "mainstream believer," so that we may or may not come to an understanding of what you mean by it? The term is used both positively and negatively in media, and has similarly been used as a pro or con here in various forums, but what do YOU mean by it?
Praying with you all,
Tom
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John T
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07/06/2011 19:32 |
A few thoughts, if I may:
TRWord states: "Jesus taught that we sin because we are separated from God." -- Yes, we do sin because we are born separated from God, separated due to the sin that was already in us passed down from our fathers and ultimately to Adam. However, Adam was not separated from God, and yet he sinned. His sin started the separation.
Also, you argue that the omnipresence of God means that Satan cannot exist. Following that logic, how can we exist? How can this world exist? The Omnipresence of God means His spirit is everywhere, it doesn't mean that his spirit converts all matter into Him and nothing else can exist. He is a creator! He created the angels, and he created us a little lower than the angels it states. Of course we exist.
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TRWord
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07/07/2011 09:58 |
Catholica wrote:
Chris, you say that "New age believers misinterpret (God's omnipresence) to mean that they are gods". How is this different from what you believe? I take it to mean that you don't believe that you are "a god". But do you believe that you "are" God, just as Jesus "is" God?
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Andre
You continue to hear what you are hearing instead of what I’m saying. Jesus never taught that we are gods or that we are God as He is.
Again.... Jesus came to reveal God as three persons the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost which dwell in us. The revelation of the Holy Spirit is the recognition of the Oneness of God or the omnipresence of God. You need to understand what Jesus is saying here in John 14:20.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
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Ted C
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07/07/2011 11:28 |
-<sigh>- Maybe the third try will do the trick. TR, you purport to sincerely desire to follow the Truth and walk in truth. Please answer these two questions truthfully and clearly...
King James Version:
Hebrews 9:15-26 "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.' Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Hebrews 10:19-31 "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The LORD will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
1. Do you believe these passages in error, intentionally deceptive, or that the translation cannot be trusted?
2. You believe that there is no evil and no act is evil. Traditionalists just believe, erroneously, that some acts are evil. Correct?
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TRWord
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07/07/2011 14:05 |
Sorry Jonathon but your understanding is quite flawed. Your statement that God use the devil as an object to do His will. Just as God used the nations around israel to judge israel when they disobeyed God is contrived and without Biblical support.
Your understanding is of the old covenant idea of disobedience and punishment.
Before the coming of Jesus Christ we believed in a God of vengeance and wrath but Jesus came and revealed the truth. Which you haven’t received.
The devil is not just a very important part of your understanding but you believe that God uses the devil to punish us. Jesus explained to the scribes that the idea of cooperation with the devil is ridiculous.
Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mark 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
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TRWord
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07/07/2011 14:52 |
John
God created all that exist.
Where is it written that God created Satan.
Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Notice creation is finished and God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
The Omnipresence of God means that His spirit is everywhere present in all that exist as the Holy Ghost.
Obviously this means that the devil cannot exist because the Holy Ghost cannot be in the devil.
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Ted C
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07/07/2011 17:42 |
TR, it seems apparent to me that the truth is actually a problematic thing for you because you are unwilling to clearly, transparently answer specific questions about your beliefs like the ones I've directed your way three times now.
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TRWord
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07/08/2011 11:47 |
Ted C wrote:
TR, it seems apparent to me that the truth is actually a problematic thing for you because you are unwilling to clearly, transparently answer specific questions about your beliefs like the ones I've directed your way three times now.
================================
In reference to; Hebrews 9:15-26 & 10:19-31
Ted asked: “Do you believe these passages in error, intentionally deceptive, or that the translation cannot be trusted?”
Of course not!
It’s written:
2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Ted these verses are taken from Paul’s letter to the Hebrews. The Hebrews were steeped in the tradition of offering a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.
Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Paul is explaining to the Hebrews that though the pattern is the same that the understanding is not. (Heb. 9:23)
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb. 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
The 9th chapter of Hebrews Paul compare the two understandings in such a way as to emphasize the differences between the old and the new covenant.
Jesus did not die for sins according to the old covenant understanding which required that sacrifices had to made once a year.
Heb. 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Jesus died once to remove the cause of sin so that they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
NOTICE....THEY WHICH ARE CALLED.
Who are they which are called? Those who keep the sayings of the Son are those who have been called by the Father.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
The new understanding requires that we know the cause of sin but it’s only through faith in the word of Jesus Christ that we can know the cause of sin.
Jesus said:
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the cause of sin and we all blaspheme because of Adam's transgression before we receive the knowledge of the Holy Ghost through Jesus Christ.
Notice that Paul is saying that the Holy Ghost which is “the way into the holiest of all” was not yet made manifest during the first tabernacle or the old covenant.
Heb. 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Jesus Christ came to reveal God as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It’s the knowledge of the Holy Ghost that removes the cause of sin.
Ted also asked:
“You believe that there is no evil and no act is evil. Traditionalists just believe, erroneously, that some acts are evil. Correct?”
I believe that God created us in His image and He gave us dominion over the earth.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
I believe that God commanded Adam not to believe in good and evil because whatsoever we believe will manifest in the earth.
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I also obey the commandment of Jesus Christ:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
So therefore I believe we are suppose to remain steadfast in the truth and not swayed by this or that earthly appearance.
Remember Jesus said:
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Ray
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07/08/2011 16:13 |
1 John 5
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
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Ted C
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07/08/2011 21:56 |
Hebrews doesn't say the Holy Spirit opened the way into the Holiest of All by showing us not to believe in good and evil. It doesn't say anything close to that.
It says the offering of the Blood of Jesus opened the way into the Holiest of all by cleansing us from transgressions committed:
Hebrews 9:8-26
"the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.' Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
God didn't command man not to believe in good and evil. He commanded man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge - da'ath - Strong's H1847 - of good and evil. BIG difference. That word, da'ath, occurs 93 times in the Old Testament, and every instance has do to with knowledge, discernment, understanding - not belief.
Look up every instance of the original word - it's easy.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1847&t=KJV
Scripture says NO WHERE that what we believe will manifest in the earth. If that was true every person who serially buys lottery tickets would win the lottery.
You're basing your entire theology on two things which are not in Scripture. You're teaching a false gospel.
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