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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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07/09/2011 04:41 |
God didn't command man not to believe in good and evil. He commanded man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge - da'ath - Strong's H1847 - of good and evil. BIG difference. That word, da'ath, occurs 93 times in the Old Testament, and every instance has do to with knowledge, discernment, understanding - not belief.
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Ted
You have asked me quite a number of questions. Could I ask you just one?
In your own words and as concise as possible give me your understanding of Genesis 2:17.
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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Ray
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07/09/2011 08:24 |
Though I've never really spent much time on Gen 2:17, everything in my heart comes from what Jesus has done. So, from that POV, Jesus has shown us that we are to love God (and others). There is relationship for us with God and the true relationship has a boundary, as any relationship does. The relationship is about God's authority. That is why Jesus is so blown away by the Centurion, because nobody else gets this:
Luke 7:8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.”
Our trust in the authority of God is an expression of faith. God is great and creative and we are His children/creation. He is a loving authority over His creation. In the garden God makes the boundary clear. But there is a choice available in the freedom of relationship and we made our choice. Choosing to disobey the authority is still our struggle today. Joshua 24:15
John Eldredge talk about the conflict in the garden and the reason behind it in week 1 of the 'Finding Freedom' talk Brian has made available.
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Ted C
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07/09/2011 09:38 |
My understanding of Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
God is good. Man was made in God's image. God can't be in the presence of sin, so sin means going against His image and nature. I believe there was nothing special whatsoever about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil aside from the fact that God said, "thou shalt not eat of it." Love is not possible without free will. If a computer screen says, "I love you," it means nothing. There had to be a choice to love and follow God or not. Enter the command, "thou shalt not eat of it." The moment man did eat, they knew good and evil by virtue of the fact that at that point they had actually committed evil. The reason sin brings death is because God is life and if we destroy God's image, we destroy ourselves in a very real and literal way.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Notice there are five parts: God, man, Jesus, faith, and everlasting life.
God:
Malachi 3:6a - "For I am the LORD, I change not"
Psalm 106:1a - "Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good"
Jeremiah 12:1a - "Righteous art thou, O LORD"
Isaiah 6:3 - "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory"
Hebrews 6:18 - "... it [is] impossible for God to lie..."
Man:
Isaiah 59:2 - "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
Ezekiel 18:4b - "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Romans 3:12b - "there is none that doeth good, no, not one"
Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all"
2 Timothy 3:2 - "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,"
Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Jesus:
John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14a - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us"
John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Faith:
John 3:3 - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
2 Corinthians 7:10a - "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation"
Acts 3:19a - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out"
Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 10:9 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
1 John 1:7 - "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Everlasting life:
John 10:10 - "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Revelation 21:7,8 - "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Romans 6:22 - "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
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Ray
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07/10/2011 07:43 |
Wow! Have you ever done a word study on "authority." It's a life changer:
Dan 7: 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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07/10/2011 22:25 |
1Pe 2:24 He personally carried our sins in His body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By His wounds you are healed.
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TRWord
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07/11/2011 05:26 |
Ted C wrote:
My understanding of Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
God is good. Man was made in God's image. God can't be in the presence of sin, so sin means going against His image and nature. I believe there was nothing special whatsoever about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil aside from the fact that God said, "thou shalt not eat of it." Love is not possible without free will. If a computer screen says, "I love you," it means nothing. There had to be a choice to love and follow God or not. Enter the command, "thou shalt not eat of it." The moment man did eat, they knew good and evil by virtue of the fact that at that point they had actually committed evil. The reason sin brings death is because God is life and if we destroy God's image, we destroy ourselves in a very real and literal way.
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Ted this gives us a clear insight into how you interpret the scripture.
You said:” I believe there was nothing special whatsoever about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil aside from the fact that God said, "thou shalt not eat of it."”
Clearly you interpret the scripture according to what you believe and not by what is written.
Ted if there wasn’t anything special about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then God’s command becomes a threat; “do as I say or else.” Then God is testing Adam’s obedience and the price of disobedience is death.
On the other hand if there was something about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was detrimental to Adam’s very being, which is what the verse clearly infers. Then Adam is being asked to trust God’s word even if he don’t understand.
This is the two understandings of the old and the new covenant.
One understanding is founded on the idea of disobedience and punishment.
The other is founded on our faithful trust in God’s word and the presumption of His love.
You are absolutely correct when you say “There had to be a choice to love and follow God or not.” But we cannot love or trust what we fear.
We cannot love God if there is nothing special whatsoever about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil aside from the fact that God said, "thou shalt not eat of it."”
With this understanding we obey through fear and not through love.
You said: “ The moment man did eat, they knew good and evil by virtue of the fact that at that point they had actually committed evil.”
You also said in an earlier thread: “God didn't command man not to believe in good and evil. He commanded man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge - da'ath - Strong's H1847 - of good and evil. BIG difference. That word, da'ath, occurs 93 times in the Old Testament, and every instance has do to with knowledge, discernment, understanding - not belief.”
Notice the inconsistencies! Having rejected what was written you use conjecture to arrive at your conclusions.
Now there were two trees in the garden. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you also believe that there was nothing special about the tree of life? I would bet that you would not come to the same conclusion here.
These two trees obviously marked a crossroad; the two choices that Adam could have taken. One lead to life the other lead to death.
The meaning of the tree of life is obvious but the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil needs some deciphering and here is where many fall short, choosing nonsense such as the forbidden fruit and in your case no meaning at all. We have to understand what has lead us to death. Refusing to do so prevents us the ability to understand and choose the right road, the road to life.
Hebrews chapter 9 is the old and the new covenants contrasted. You have to accept God as love and learn to trust His word to understand what Paul is saying here.
Heb. 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
The new covenant cannot be understood as long as the first tabernacle is still standing.
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Ray
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07/11/2011 08:25 |
"we cannot love or trust what we fear"
this sounds like conjecture. Do you not respect those you love? I revere my wife. She leaves me in awe all the time. :) It's really a wonderful pointer to God.
Strong's H3374 - yir'ah
c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
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Ted C
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07/11/2011 08:36 |
Wow, TR, I appreciate the thought provoking response. I need to dash off to work now so I don't have time to prepare a proper response. My initial thoughts are, though, that if the two trees marked a crossroads, it is still good or evil by virtue of obedience. When God created He did say, "it is good." He still had to provide the capability of a way for man to be an independent agent, though, or man wouldn't really have been made in His image, and love would not have been possible.
A person's motivations alone can make actions, identical actions, either good and acceptable or evil and dark. During war or in fulfilling the Noahic covenant of Genesis 9:6, which most theologians understand to be the first instance of God giving civil authority the responsibility of applying capital punishment, a man may be called upon to take another's life. While not pleasant, it is right in certain circumstances. The same man taking another's life in rage or lust or fascination can be darkest evil. A lie told to a Nazi guard to protect people from certain death in a concentration camp is the right thing to do, absolutely. But that's about the only type of scenario where lying doesn't bring darkness and meke life hard. Etc. The act of disobeying God, by itself, is a very dark one at it's root.
I'll write more tonight.
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TRWord
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07/11/2011 14:17 |
Ray wrote:
"we cannot love or trust what we fear"
this sounds like conjecture. Do you not respect those you love? I revere my wife. She leaves me in awe all the time. :) It's really a wonderful pointer to God.
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Of course we revere and respect whom we love. But that is not the question here. The question is do we revere and respect those we fear. Fear is received through force anyone with a gun can gain your fear, but he cannot earn your love. I remember an instance where a crime boss was asked which he preferred to be loved or feared. Of course the crime boss chose fear.
God on other hand is seeking our love but many of us continue to give Him our fear.
Jesus said:
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”
But to love Him we have to know Him as love and not as vengeance and wrath.
Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
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John T
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07/11/2011 17:09 |
TR, there are plenty of examples of fear being a good thing as well
Job_28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro_1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro_9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro_15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
Isa_11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa_33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.
Eph_5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
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