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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Davidwayne Lackey
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07/11/2011 21:37 |
Man did not create the trees in the middle of the garden, God did. Jon was correct, there is necessary evil. Without it there can be no free will to choose. Why would God ever set the trees in the middle of the garden in the first place?
How could God say everything He created was good knowing all the evil things that were going to happen since God is omniscient? Since God sees everything from beginning to end, was He not talking about the eventual outcome at the end of the age of man?
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TRWord
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07/12/2011 06:11 |
John T wrote:
TR, there are plenty of examples of fear being a good thing as well.
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John the scripture has repeated again and again that “the fear of the Lord” is the beginning of wisdom or the old covenant. You have to acknowledge the two covenants.
Proverbs 9:10 which you quoted is stating this clearly. “The knowledge of the holy” is the new understanding; the new covenant.
Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Galatians 4:22-31 The apostle Paul reveals the inner meaning of the story of Abraham’s two sons; the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. One born after flesh and the other by promise. He reveals that these are the two covenants.
The one from Mount Sinai; (the law of Moses) “the bondmaid” keeps us in bondage. This is “the fear of the Lord,” the old covenant.
The one from Jesus Christ (the gospel) “the freewoman “ sets us free. This is the promise given to Abraham, The new covenant.
Paul also reminds us that the scripture said; (Gal. 4:30) that we (who are in Christ) should “cast out the bondwoman and her son:
We who are in Christ are suppose to cast away “the fear of the Lord” and obey our Lord Jesus Christ who commanded that we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Notice Paul is also telling us (Gal. 3:24) that the purpose of the law was to teach us obedience preparing us for faith through Jesus Christ.
Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
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TRWord
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07/12/2011 15:24 |
Davidwayne asked:” How could God say everything He created was good knowing all the evil things that were going to happen since God is omniscient?”
If God said that everything he created was good that is the truth. God cannot tell a lie. This should tell you that all the evil that came after was not created by God.
So where did it come from?
Is it possible that it all came from Adam partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Nah!
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Calico
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07/12/2011 17:51 |
Hi Christopher,
Forgive me, Christopher and David, if I am speaking out of turn; I know that the above post of 07/12/2011 15:24 was directed at David, but at this point on the thread I find in my own heart that it is important to respond here.
Christopher, friend, I had previously stated and respectfully restate again that the worldview you profess is not at all encapsulating of a holistic theology nor spirituality, and is in fact actually too limited in it's conception, and that such a worldview cannot logically lead to proper conclusions that support the weight of additional biblical fact. Your above post is again another example of this limitation.
From the words you've expressed both here on this thread ("...evil that came after was not created by God. So where did it come from? Is it possible that it all came from Adam partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.") and elsewhere on other threads, you seem to negate biblical data apart from the Genesis account, and thus you seem to have developed what appears to be a limited (and thereby skewed) worldview.
You are quite right wherein you've previously stated things such as that God could not CREATE evil. Yet because of FREE WILL, it is at least logical to state that God had to create a world in which evil was at least POTENTIAL, so that choice could be made. And while you've correctly asserted that man has a large contributing factor in making evil ACTUAL, you've also LIMITED your view of evil to ONLY man, which you seem to do by making use of data ONLY from the creation account of Genesis. But when examining your question of "where did evil come from?" we need to look elsewhere to robustly view the context of the Genesis account.
The answer to the origins of evil (evil, again restating my previously written understanding both on this thread and on others, as being "a deprivation of some good that ought to be there;" that it "describes a qualitative state; it is the 'without-God' state, degenerative to whatever depth or degree that state exists in nature or man") is found in Isaiah 14, wherein I have cited only a highlighting of things happening BEFORE the choices made by Adam and Eve in the garden:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." (verses 12 to 15, from the KJV).
Correspondingly, there is also the allegorical passage from Ezekiel 28, of the King of Tyre:
"Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.'" (again from the KJV, verses 11 to 19).
Connectively, this shows us that Satan, whom you say does not exist, and evil, which you also claim as non-existent, have origins BEFORE the event of being cast down to the earth; that is, the sinful (and free-willed) choice of Lucifer to make an attempt to live 'without-God' took place before the Eden account of Adam and Eve's sinful (and free-willed) choices. Because this happened prior to the Genesis 3 account, we can also now see why there is the swaying influence of the serpent in the garden. Furthermore, the serpent found in the garden account IS the same serpent found in the the Revelation prophecy:
"And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him," and "And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan," (Rev. 12:9, and Rev. 20:2a; NAS).
Additional reference to those ongoing evil influences of "the without-God life" ("deprived of something good that ought to be there") are also found here: "And the angels who kept not their principality but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day." in Jude 1:6 (Douay-Rheims).
Similarly we can examine other resonating data from Revelation 12, which, whether one takes it to be literal or metaphorical, at least resonates clearly and connectively:
"And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." (from Rev. 12:3 - 9; ESV).
Christopher, David is quite right when he makes note of God's foreknowledge ("knowing all the evil things that were going to happen"): even as much as God made a world where evil is POTENTIAL, it was Adam and Eve who made it ACTUAL (they were deceived into doing so by believing influential false information), but biblically we can see that God clearly was in the work of planning further provisional outcomes to bring about (begin to bring about) His final restoration of humanity:
"...(let us) share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR WORKS BUT BECAUSE OF HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, which he gave us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE AGES BEGAN," (2 Tim. 1:8b, 9; ESV, with emphasis).
All in all, let me offer to all here that the following is helpful on this thread, for further understanding, since it seems to fit well with the biblical data as can be best discerned by how the Spirit guides us into all truth:
"Now God can create free creatures, but He can’t cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren’t significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil." (author Alvin Plantinga, in "God, Freedom, and Evil").
Christopher, much of what you contribute to the thread gives us food for thought and challenges all of us to do well in our apprenticeship under Christ. But I will, again, respectfully, say that the things you have offered are too limiting and infirm - limiting in a way that denies further biblical truth. In that regard, such a worldview is dangerous to inculcate, and thus it is healthy for you, I, and others to engage dialog on what has been/is being disputed.
I can agree with you on some things, and not on others. It's always wonderful to see you encourage us all to take seriously our life with Christ. Indeed, while we can enjoy the intellectual investigation of the origin of evil, we should always bring our thoughts back to our own contribution to the problem, and how we can and should repent, change course, change our minds, and return to the way of Jesus. In that regard, as for what can be done in the unity of community, this is best done through the powerful, relational exchange of confession and prayer, while all the while "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb. 12:2; ESV).
Praying with you all,
Tom
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Ted C
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07/12/2011 22:15 |
OK, TR, I have a moment to respond.
I know it seems on the surface that if the tree had no supernatural properties, then naming it as an option and making the penalty of choosing it death would seem to be an arbitrary and capricious test. But death wasn't an arbitrary penalty: Because man is made in God's image, and God doesn't change, the result of going against His image is death- by vehicle of the corruption and destruction of God's image.
Man was made in God's' image:
Genesis 1:27 - "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Genesis 2:7 - "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 5:3 - "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth."
God created us for love:
1 John 4:8 - "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
2 Peter 2:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God has set before man choice:
Deuteronomy 30:19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"
Joshua 24:15 - "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
The unalterable end result of rejecting God (God's image) is the destruction of one's self:
Romans 1:20-25 - "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
Isaiah 59:2 - "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Note that God is life, John 14:6, and so to be separated from God is to be in a place of death.)
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
This corruption of God's image in man was originally the result of Adam's disobedience, and it has been passed down in Adam's image to all of us, who are individually guilty of our own sin.
Romans 3:9,10 - "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 51:4,5 - "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Genesis 3:17 - "And unto Adam he said, Because thou...hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"
(Notice that God did not say, "Because of the tree...", or, "Because of Thy belief...", but rather the verse clearly only calls out the act of disobedience.)
Romans 5:12-17 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"
God knew before He created man that man would fall. God's answer was to take the punishment of death on Himself. God Himself bore the consequence of sin on the cross in our place. BUT - and this is a very important but - Jesus' work on the cross does not take away our freewill in regards to responding to God. Man can still choose to reject God and be separated from Him. The penalty for this is separation from God, who is love, life, joy, peace, etc., which puts man in the eternal position of death, torment, darkness, etc.
Revelation 13:8b - "...the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Hebrews 9:25,26 - "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Romans 5:8-11 - "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."
Acts 3:18-21 - "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
Matthew 4:17 - "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
John 14:15 - "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 15:10 - "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
1 Corinthians 15:1-6 - "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."
Galatians 1:8,9 - "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Romans 10:8-10 - "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
And so rather than a capricious trap on God's part, this is really all about love and us having a choice. It's about God desiring to have a love relationship with us and at the same time refusing to violate our freewill. And so the choice is before us all.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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07/13/2011 00:40 |
TRW, God indeed does not lie. If God was talking about the beginning of mankind only and all He made then, since He is omniscient, could not have called it all good. That would have been a lie. Since we know God does not lie He could not have been talking about the beginning only but the end result at the end of the age of man. Since God sees everything from beginning to end He could make the remark that it was good. God knowing all the evil that would happen throughout all history could only call it good because He knew the end result.
To blame all evil on Adam is like blaming a baby for grabbing at a big bright red ball. If the ball was not there the baby would not be grabbing at it. In any case it was Eve who the Serpent beguiled. So the first act of evil recorded was by the Serpent known as the Devil, not man. So there was evil before man sinned.
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Calico
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07/13/2011 01:19 |
Ted, David, each of you have posted strong reasonings, in well-founded posts. We certainly do not yet live in the best of all possible worlds, yet Scripturally the worldview you each seem to subscribe to gives construct to the best possible way that God is bringing about the best possible world. There's much of God's love evident in what you've both written. I've enjoyed the thoroughness of each of your above posts.
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TRWord
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07/13/2011 06:17 |
Tom
When lost it’s wise that we return to the place where we first went off track in order that we can find the correct way. To just continue the journey in the hope that you’ll eventually find your way is foolish.
Genesis 2:17 is where we all went off track through Adam.
My calling is to point the lost to where we first jump the track. Your view is that it’s “not at all encapsulating of a holistic theology nor spirituality, and is in fact actually too limited in it's conception, and that such a worldview cannot logically lead to proper conclusions that support the weight of additional biblical fact.”
The vast majority of Christians today are still lost and as much in bondage to the things of this world as the total non-believer.
Why? because they are lost.
2 Cor. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
All that are lost have one thing in common a lack of trust in God’s word and a lack in the conviction that God is love. Acts that they will in no way ascribe to an earthly father they have no problem ascribing to our heavenly Father.
Genesis 2:17 was an act of love and until you can see that you will remain on the wrong track.
Christopher
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Calico
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07/13/2011 08:28 |
Hi Christopher, good morning to you in T & T,
You'd said "When lost it’s wise that we return to the place where we first went off track in order that we can find the correct way. To just continue the journey in the hope that you’ll eventually find your way is foolish."
This is a wonderful statement to have made, indeed, it is an imperative of how one in Christ disciples another, amen?
You'd also said "Genesis 2:17 is where we all went off track through Adam."
Again, indeed! This is surely IS where humanity went off track - yet via this view of the too-narrow focus, for us to leave out additional biblical factual information of the origin of evil does a terrible disservice to those whom are in need of discipleship.
And further you'd said "My calling is to point the lost to where we first jump the track."
A helpful thing to do, certainly, in the matter of spiritual formation...
...although "(my) view that (your worldview) is (still) 'not at all encapsulating of a holistic theology nor spirituality, and is in fact actually too limited in it's conception, and that such a worldview cannot logically lead to proper conclusions that support the weight of additional biblical fact'" still stands, respectfully, my friend.
If, for illustration's sake, we were on the one hand to think of "vessels" in which our theology and experiential knowledge of God might be carried, it would seem that the vessel in which your worldview is expressed may well fit inside of the (perhaps larger) vessel of the biblical worldview, with some pertinent exceptions (ie. the view that Satan does not exist, nor does evil, which do not seem at all to fit in the biblical worldview). On the other hand, the biblical worldview will not fit inside the vessel of your worldview. The biblical worldview is greater/larger than the limitation of the worldview you've expressed, and is therefore more robust and expansive.
Still further, you'd said "The vast majority of Christians today are still lost and as much in bondage to the things of this world as the total non-believer."
Very much in agreement with you, my friend. I cannot offer anything further on this; you've succinctly stated an observation which troubles the hearts of the apprentices of Jesus.
"Why? because they are lost."
Lost is a good word to dwell on here, for a moment. Dallas Willard has offered to us some thoughts on "being lost," as follows:
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"...a ruined soul is a lost soul. What is a 'lost soul'? Just someone God is mad at? When is a person lost? And is anyone lost today?
Considerable confusion on this topic has resulted from trying to think of being lost in terms of its OUTCOME. Theologically, that outcome is hell - a most uncomfortable notion. Certainly, if you are lost in any sense there is little likelihood of your arriving where you want to be. But the CONDITION of lostness is not the same as the outcome to which it leads. We're not lost because we're going to wind up in the wrong place. We are going to wind up in the wrong place because we are lost.
To be lost means to be OUT OF PLACE, to be omitted. 'Gehenna,' the term often used in the New Testament for the place of the lost, may usefully be thought of as the cosmic dump for the irretrievably useless. Think of what it would mean to find you have become irretrievably useless. Something that is lost is something that is not where it is supposed to be, and therefore it is not integrated into the life of the one to whom it belongs and to whom it is lost.
Think of what it means when the keys to your house or car are lost. They are useless to you, no matter how much you need them and desire to have them and no matter what fine keys they may be. And when we are lost to God, we are not where we are supposed to be in his world and hence are not caught up into his life. We are NOT 'partakers of the divine nature,' have NOT 'escaped the corruption that is in the world' through lust (2 Peter 1:4, paraphrased). We are our own god, and our god doesn't amount to much.
When we are lost to God, we are also lost to ourselves: we do not know where we are or how to get where we want to go. We may know we are lost or we may not. Many a driver is lost long before he knows he is - though rarely before his wife knows it. Many are lost before God but do not know it. They sincerely believe that they know where they are, where they are going, and how to get there; but in fact they do not, and they often find out too late. Disorientation to moral, personal, and divine reality, as well as to the physical, sometimes leads us across lines that CANNOT be recrossed. This is part of the tragic meaning of human time and action."
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As well, 2 Cor. 4:3 & 4 are good citations, particularly with vs. 4 bringing to mind a hinting-at of "the god of this world," this one who is also found to be referred to here:
"We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19; NAS). This is a part of the more robust biblical worldview, apart from the worldview you've expressed wherein there is no such thing as Satan nor evil.
Where you've said "All that are lost have one thing in common a lack of trust in God’s word and a lack in the conviction that God is love," yes, I agree with you. Certainly the word "conviction" is a good, healthy, strong word to use. I would offer to you and the others here that 1.) when we do not recognize the truth of our identity, we 2.) do not have a conviction of the desolation of our lost-ness, and thus 3.) we cannot understand the magnitude of the finished work of Christ.
You and I (and clearly some others here on this thread and other threads before it) have our differences as to the "how" and "why" and "the means" of those three above statements, brother, and I do not expect you to completely change or renounce the worldview you've expressed. I'd offer, however, to you for your consideration, the words of Oliver Cromwell, him having said to disputing Christian brothers "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it POSSIBLE you MAY be mistaken."
For my part, of what you are evangelizing on the various DAB threads, I currently stand unconvinced of that worldview because of what it lacks in robustness, Christopher, yet I pray that between us we can accept one another without feeling that we must falsely approve one another. Acceptance does not equal approval, but love in Christ still stands as our mediator in our disagreements.
Perhaps we can both have comfort in the fact that intelligent minds and persons of greater stature than either you and I have wrestled with these sorts of matters in long centuries before us, and they have had disagreement as well. Indeed, if we both remain in Christ, then "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Cor. 13:8 - 13; KJV).
Praying with you, Christopher,
Tom
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TRWord
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07/14/2011 14:37 |
Ted Wrote:
God knew before He created man that man would fall. God's answer was to take the punishment of death on Himself. God Himself bore the consequence of sin on the cross in our place. BUT - and this is a very important but - Jesus' work on the cross does not take away our freewill in regards to responding to God. Man can still choose to reject God and be separated from Him. The penalty for this is separation from God, who is love, life, joy, peace, etc., which puts man in the eternal position of death, torment, darkness, etc.
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Ted you are “in bondage” to the idea of disobedience and punishment. This understanding is the lens through which you interpret all scripture.
Notice here you have God punishing Himself for sin and you believe that all of the Lord's work was done on the cross.
This the understanding born of the bondwoman, born of the flesh that Paul spoke about.
Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Notice Paul is also speaking of another understanding born of the freewoman given by promise.
Paul said that we are to cast out the bondwoman and her son:
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal. 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Jesus came to reveal the truth which He said shall set us free. This is the understanding born of the free woman.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
You said:
“And so rather than a capricious trap on God's part, this is really all about love and us having a choice. It's about God desiring to have a love relationship with us and at the same time refusing to violate our freewill. And so the choice is before us all.”
This the balancing act that all of you who believe in disobedience and punishment are faced with. On the one hand you have outlined what you call “a capricious trap on God's part” and then you have to try and weave “a love relationship” from a belief that is void of love.
All this is quite unnecessary. Jesus has revealed God as love. Those who have accept God as love are in a loving relationship with the Father. And they interpret scripture not through the belief in disobedience and punishment but through the truth that God is love.
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