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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ted C
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06/11/2011 12:18 |
Andre, that's a brilliant point about personal or private revelation. In a way, that's what this all comes down to. Scripture indicates that it is - in and of itself - complete and correct for understanding doctrine. My wife came out of a movement where some of the aspects got into spiritual abuse, and the abuse centered on some of the leaders making claims of having special, extra-biblical revelation. Any time someone claims to have special knowledge that no one else has, it should be a red flag.
The way it played out in my wife's church was that a leader would claim to have revelation that a member of the congregation wasn't doing too well spiritually; that they were struggling with some secret sin and something wasn't quite right. Or that a person needed to take a specific job or move to a specific town because God had told the leader that's what the person had to do. The church ended up dissolving later and a lot of people got really hurt through the process.
Claims of having an exclusive key to understanding Scripture, or of having the exclusive interpretation of what something is an analogy for, are the exact same type of thing. "God told me, and so you need to believe... act... do... this way."
Now if someone believes God has told them something, they should do three things. First, make sure that it lines up with the whole of Scripture. Second, if it lines up, see if it agrees with what you feel the Holy Spirit is telling you. If it lines up with Scripture and it seems good to you and the Holy Spirit, then you can never go wrong trying to walk through an open door or waiting to see if the thing comes to pass and giving God the glory afterwards. But if something doesn't line up, or doesn't seem good, never feel compelled because someone else says, "I have special revelation..."
One other thing - I've found that God will not always tell me "Yes" to the correct course of action, but He will generally always say "No" to the wrong one. So if I'm not sure which way to go, I find a way that lines up with Scripture and I start trying to walk through the door. If it opens - hooray, I've found direction. But if I hit my head or God tells me emphatically no - that's also a good outcome. In that case I've also received direction.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
Acts 15:22a
"Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them..."
Acts 15:28a
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden..."
1 Corinthians 14:29
"Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment."
Luke 2:15-19
"When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, 'Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.' So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart."
Philippians 3:13-15
"Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;"
1 Thessalonians 5:16-24
"Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass."
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TRWord
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06/12/2011 14:49 |
Hi Andre
First you said; “I didn't know much about Quakers and whether they are New Age, but from what you write, TRWord, it appears that my quick assessment was correct.”
You seem to do this a lot. Make assessments bases on a limit amount of knowledge.
Then you said “It seems that, in Quakerism, there is room to belief that the Bible is inerrant OR errant, that Jesus is God or not God. These two things would be the foundations of every "Bible-believing Christian"'s belief system.”
The question is what in your limited knowledge of what you call “Quakerism” could bring you to this conclusion.
Jesus said;
Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matt. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matt. 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Quakers can be judge by their fruit the same as what you call “Bible-believing Christians” can be judge by theirs. Who resembles what he taught you or they?
You also seem to think that those who believe that Jesus was God are those who believe mainstream doctrine.
Jesus said;
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Mainstreamers have ignored the saying of our Lord Jesus Christ for the contrived doctrine of a pagan Roman Emperor and then you say you believe He was God.
You continue to deny the history of what is called christianity today, the politics of cardinals and High Priest that had everything to do with controlling the masses and nothing to do with the knowledge of God.
You have also attributed a purity to you beliefs that you have to know is false.
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Catholica
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06/13/2011 11:41 |
Hi Chris,
No doubt that people are judged by their works. There are several passages in the Bible that talk about such things. However it doesn't say that we can judge whether a person's beliefs are true by their outward works, or whether they believe true doctrine by their outward works, however you want to phrase it. After all, Paul himself said both:
"I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me;" Galatians 2:19b-20
AND
"What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
So if one were to look at the works of Paul, clearly Paul still sinned; he didn't want to sin, but he still did it. If we were to say "look at Paul's bad fruits. At one point he went around murdering people. He stopped doing that, but he still sins, so what he is teaching is suspect" then we would be missing out on a whole treasury of Christianity. One might say "Throw out Paul's epistles, the man has done horrible crimes and he can't be trusted." In fact, this exact thing happened to Paul; people didn't trust him because of the horrible crimes he committed in the past. Yet we all here concur that we can trust Paul's writing (and thereby his doctrine, even if we disagree on precisely what that entails) even in the face of the fact that Paul still sinned at times even after he became Christian.
So to raise the argument that any branch of Christianity is false because certain purported "adherents" of that particular branch did some very heinous things in the past, is itself a grave error.
Let's look at that verse that you quoted:
Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matt. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matt. 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
"Beware of false prophets." What does Matthew mean by a "false prophet"? Clearly he is not referring to a "false teacher". A "false teacher" could be spotted pretty easily by someone who understood orthodox doctrine, or one could even could use reason to demonstrate a teaching's falseness based on that which one already knows is true. A "false prophet", on the other hand, is someone who would come claiming to be speaking for God, but they are speaking something that is not really from God, though it may have elements of truth in it.
"which come to you in sheep's clothing" How do the prophets come? In "sheep's clothing". This seems to imply that they try to appear as authoritative and trustworthy to people so that others will believe them.
Question: would a self-asserted /prophet/ who is "wearing sheep's clothing" state that they believe one thing and then do another? No; such a /prophet/ would try to follow through with what they teach in order to be taken seriously, since they are not teaching something that people already know is true.
So really, such a prophet needs to be "known by his fruits". What sort of fruits are we talking about? Well, since it makes sense that a prophet who comes bearing a message would be attempting to live that message, then the fruit would be what happens when one authentically lives out that prophet's message.
As has been testified to by escapees of the New Age, the fruits of the New Age denial of evil and sin and belief in personal revelation has led to people being opened to demonic influence and oppression, or becoming spiritually abused.
Here is an article worth reading of one such escapee:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/new_age.htm
There are many more attestations to this phenomena that I can dig up if people want them and I can find the time.
Back to the verse quoted above (Matthew 7:15-18). I would state that the people who were behaving in contradiction to what their faith was teaching them were not the "false prophets" trying to deceive people, but simply people failing to live up to what they believed.
A false prophet would not teach one thing and do another; he would teach that thing and live it, and the fruit of that thing would be evil or would work in concert with evil. The evidence that New Age spiritualism is false is in the fruit of living New Age spiritualism, which results in a person /opening himself to the influence of spirits/ whom the person /cannot/ believe are evil because they have been /taught that evil does not exist/. It also leads to the warping of the essential truth about the nature of God and ultimately causing people to forgo the means that God gave us for the purpose of effecting our salvation (as New Age sometimes teaches that since "God is within" then salvation is from "within").
Andre
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TRWord
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06/13/2011 16:02 |
Hi Andre
You said;
“Beware of false prophets." What does Matthew mean by a "false prophet"? Clearly he is not referring to a "false teacher". A "false teacher" could be spotted pretty easily by someone who understood orthodox doctrine, or one could even could use reason to demonstrate a teaching's falseness based on that which one already knows is true. A "false prophet", on the other hand, is someone who would come claiming to be speaking for God, but they are speaking something that is not really from God, though it may have elements of truth in it.”
The gospels are for the most part a word for word account of the Lord’s teaching. The query isn’t what does Matthew mean by a false prophet these are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Matthew (5:3-7:27) commonly known as “The Sermon on the Mount,” contains in capsule form the entity of His teaching.
This proves Andre that you don’t know His voice.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Remember I quoted (Matthew 7:15-18) in defense of the Quakers who you judge as not being Christians.
You said ;
“No doubt that people are judged by their works. There are several passages in the Bible that talk about such things. However it doesn't say that we can judge whether a person's beliefs are true by their outward works, or whether they believe true doctrine by their outward works, however you want to phrase it. After all, Paul himself said both:”
Jesus said the opposite;
Matt. 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
You also said;
“So to raise the argument that any branch of Christianity is false because certain purported "adherents" of that particular branch did some very heinous things in the past, is itself a grave error.”
Again you are going contrary to word of the Lord.
The false prophet that Jesus talked about is a false doctrine that has led the majority of believers astray.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
It’s a shame that you have chosen to follow what you call "orthodox doctrine" instead of the words of our Lord.
While you are judging the validity of the New Age movement the fact is you yourself is being led astray.
Learn His sayings and keep them this is the way, there is no other.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
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Catholica
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06/13/2011 17:07 |
Ok, I mis-wrote. It was Matthew's recording of the words of Jesus, and Jesus specifically said "false prophet" not "false teacher". I did not intend to make such a distinction, and such a distinction does not change my argument at all.
In terms of the New Age movement, the fruit is bad. New Age spirituality opens people to the influence of demonic spirits, this /fact/ is demonstrated through real-life experiences. This demonic spirit teaches exactly what the devil wants them to believe: that we are not saved by Jesus' sacrifice, that God is an impersonal life-force, that we can save ourselves, that Satan does not exist, that sin does not exist, that evil does not exist, that we can be "as gods".
And though I appreciate your concern for my being led astray, I'm sure you'd appreciate that my concern is also for people being led astray. If anything I've written about New Age is false, please feel free to correct me. It is fairly clear now that you have accepted some form of New Age beliefs, so maybe you will answer these questions about the New Age, since you are the insider-expert. Then at least we can know the truth about the New Age.
1.) Does the New Age group that you most closely associated with teach that Jesus is God? yes or no?
2.) Does the New Age group that you most closely associated with teach that the Devil, also known as Satan, exists and is a living being? yes or no?
3.) Does the New Age group that you most closely associated with teach that evil exists? yes or no?
4.) Does the New Age group that you most closely associated with teach that sin is real, i.e. that we can "offend" God through something that we do? yes or no?
5.) When trying to understand the Bible, have you ever referred to the "Metaphysical Bible Dictionary" when trying to understand the definition of any word in the Bible? Yes or no?
6.) Please provide any ancient early Church extra-biblical evidence you have that support what you purvey, which is that the teachings that you subscribe to were the "true teaching of Jesus".
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TRWord
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06/14/2011 14:45 |
Andre
Andre
As we have noted a couple of post ago you are prone to making assessments with little or no knowledge. For instance the assessment that has you repeating the phase; “the New Age group that you most closely associated with.”
First lets deal with that; Two years ago I quoted Jack Addington’s book “The Hidden Mystery of the Bible’ and that was enough to convince you that I’m an associate of the the New thought movement. I hope you don’t draw all your conclusions in this manner. As you must have noticed that I quoted nothing but the King James version of the scripture since. So as not to mislead persons as yourself.
During what you called “the ancient early Church” the hierarchy used the term heresy to control the masses. Example Galileo was a heretic for saying that the world was round. You believe that christianity is the doctrine that you have adopted and you use the term new age like they used heresy.
Now to answer your questions;
This is what I believe.
1) Do I believe Jesus is God ? Of course I do. He said so.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
You have concluded that those who do not believe in the doctrine of salvation through the cross automatically do not believe that Jesus is God. Wrong!!!
Mainstreamers believe that Christ died on the cross in their place. This belief have robbed them of the knowledge of God which can only be attained through the word of the Lord. Doctrine is the commandments of men and it indoctrinates believers to hear the voice of men instead of the voice of the Lord.
2&3) Do I believe in the existence of the devil and evil? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Our God is a jealous God. There is no room for Him and anything or anyone else. And as long as you remain deceived believing in the devil and the existence of evil you cannot know God.
Most of us have very little difficulty accepting that God is omniscient or “all knowing” but accepting that God is Omnipresent or “the only presence” and Omnipotent or “the only power” is impossible because we believe in the devil and the existence of evil.
God commanded Adam not to believe in good and evil for this very reason.
Even after Christ’s mission which was to annul Adam’s transgression and reconcile us to the Father. Most of us remain deceived because we have been misguided away from His teaching to a doctrine that demands a belief in the devil and the existence of evil.
Rev. 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Even though most believer would agree that the devil was defeated; “wounded to death” at calvary he is alive and well; “his deadly wound was healed” because the devil is still a major part of the Mainstream Christian's beliefs.
4) To answer your question about sin.
It’s important that you notice that Jesus taught “That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Sin is not just transgression against the law it’s also blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The belief in good and evil is the cause of sin because it’s blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
5) I look to spirit to reveal the word of the Lord and therefore I do not use the Metaphysics Bible Dictionary.
Jesus said;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
However I do a have a Metaphysics Bible Dictionary in my library and I did use it during my earlier quest. And having used it I can tell you it’s not some evil book that will lead you down a path of unrighteousness. That is just more mainstream fear mongering.
6) You said;
“ Please provide any ancient early Church extra-biblical evidence you have that support what you purvey, which is that the teachings that you subscribe to were the "true teaching of Jesus"”
The gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the true teaching of Jesus Christ.
No what you call “an ancient early Church extra-biblical evidence” is necessary to support the Lord’s teaching if you believe the scriptures.
Mainstream christianity has taught the indoctrinated to leap frog the gospels to Paul’s letters. The problem is you cannot understand Paul’s letters without an understanding of the Lord’s teaching and worst of all you will never ever ever ever be able to understand the Apocalypse.
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Ted C
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06/14/2011 16:20 |
If sin is simply believing in evil then believing in evil is not itself evil and sin is not a matter of right or wrong. In fact, it's sin to think that sin is a matter of right and wrong, correct TR? To believe in good and evil?
Jack the Ripper, was he evil? Did he not exist? TR, please tell me exactly what the score was spiritually with Jack the Ripper. If there is no evil, he did no wrong; he merely sinned by believing in evil and trying to do evil. But he didn't really do evil; evil doesn't exist, right? He could have committed the acts of murder apart from belief either way and been just fine spiritually, correct?
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Marcie in MO
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06/14/2011 19:03 |
Why did Jesus drive out demons and even speak to them if they don't exist?
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TRWord
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06/15/2011 06:03 |
Marcie asked;
Why did Jesus drive out demons and even speak to them if they don't exist?
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To me the question is; if evil exist why did God command Adam not to believe in it and why did Jesus command us not to resist it.
Matt. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matt. 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Also if demons exist who created them. At the end of creation, God looked at all He had created and said it was very good.
Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
We are spiritual beings created in the image of our Father and we were given dominion over all the earth.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
What we believe manifests in the earth so by believing in good and evil we shall experience good and evil.
Our demons are a manifestation of our beliefs.
Jesus spoke to demons and the devil to demonstrate His authority over them. He also told us that we’ll be able to do the same when He returned to the Father.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jesus came to reveal the truth that God is all that exist.
The problem is our “Quid Pro Quo” understanding of the statement ; “that Jesus died for our sins.”
Jesus did not die in our place for our wrong doings, Jesus died to reveal the truth that will remove the cause of sin.
We shall enter the kingdom of God when we realize that God is all the exist.
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Catholica
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06/15/2011 09:10 |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for answering my questions. I'm glad that you personally believe that Jesus is God. I don't think you should be surprised when people size you up and come to the wrong conclusions about you. The last time we asked you direct questions you redirected and didn't answer them.
So basically, the only thing that I said, according to your understanding of New Age, that is incorrect, is that they don't believe that Jesus is God. But you agree that the New Age, as some call it and as you practice it, believe that there is no evil, that there is no devil, and that there is sin, but sin is "caused by" the belief in good and evil.
Does that mean, that since you do not believe in evil, that you are incapable of sin, since belief in good and evil is the cause of sin?
What if someone did something to someone else, for example, let's use the Jack the Ripper example that Ted raised. What would be your response to hearing about heinous acts of violence? Is it disbelief that it happened? Or do you acknowledge that it happened? How do you process such acts?
Help me understand how your beliefs play out in your life when things that seem to contradict them occur.
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