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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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06/23/2011 05:04 |
Marcie wrote:
TR, you keep skirting the issue. If this is the huge mistake that we have made since the Garden of Eden, why would Jesus have not told us so. It seems as if it would have been the next most important thing after loving God and loving one another.
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Jesus did tell us:
Notice He said:
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Have you ever tried to decipher the truth that He said we will know and that will set us free. You continue to believe that the scriptures must be interpreted literally so you do not look past the surface that is the problem. Remember the thread you started about a year ago; “Thoughts on not believing a literal account of Genesis.” I tried to tell this then.
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Marcie in MO
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06/23/2011 06:21 |
So this is the most important fact which we have missed in all of time and that veiled reference is all Jesus had to say about it?
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TRWord
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06/23/2011 09:44 |
Marcie wrote:
So this is the most important fact which we have missed in all of time and that veiled reference is all Jesus had to say about it?
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We have been missing it from the beginning because we fail to realize that the entire book is veiled. Every parable is a veiled message. Every time He said Verily, verily He was trying to get our attention. Jesus said “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” He told the rich man to go and sell everything he own first.
Why because The way to life is not a given, it’s a quest that requires our utmost desire and a single mindedness of purpose.
The common understanding is that we seek our way in the world while we serve God on the side. But Jesus taught that we are a product of our desire. Our utmost desire is what we treasure most, therefore our likelihood of finding the way to life is equivalent to our desire to find it.
Matt. 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matt. 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matt. 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
What ever we desire more will always stand in the way of us finding it.
Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
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Ray
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06/23/2011 10:14 |
Help me get closer to you, Chris. You wrote, "However I do a have a Metaphysics Bible Dictionary in my library and I did use it during my earlier quest." Tell me about the "earlier quest." What do you want now? Tell me about where love is expressed in your life today. You have your religion and it is strong in you. Tell me about it.
Matthew 7:2
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
This statement is not a haphazard guess, it is an eternal law of God. Whatever judgment you give, it is measured to you again. There is a difference between retaliation and retribution. Jesus says that the basis of life is retribution - "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." If you have been shrewd in finding out the defects in others, remember that will be exactly the measure given to you. Life serves back in the coin you pay. This law works from God's throne downwards (cf. Psalm 18:25-26). http://www.myutmost.org/06/0622.html
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Ted C
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06/23/2011 14:07 |
TR, you skipped over my posting on Hebrews. It clearly teaches that we are saved by the blood sacrifice of Jesus for transgressions we commit, and that to reject this teaching is to be in danger of eternal torment. It was about 12 messages back. Will you please re-read that and comment?
Thanks!
Ted
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Marcie in MO
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06/23/2011 19:23 |
God should be our utmost desire and not kept on the sideline of our life. On that point you and I agree 100%, TR. :) As for the other, we will have to agree to disagree.
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TRWord
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06/25/2011 06:37 |
Ray
When I refer to the earlier quest I’m referring to my early thirties when my hunger for a deeper understanding began. On my thirtieth birthday I bought myself a Bible and I began the quest. I read everything I got my hands on and I dragged my family from church to church looking for what I knew was missing. At some point I began to see denominationalism as the problem. I could not reconcile the question of how all these different denominations could have sprung from one message. At this point I received a tape from a Catholic Priest which helped me understand the Lord’s statement: “In my Father's house are many mansions:” I realized that in the house of God that there are many levels of understanding from the parishioner to the priest to the monk to the contemplative. I also discovered at time the idea of Christian Mysticism, previously I had thought that mysticism was of religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. This drew me away from doctrine and to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught:
Matt. 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matt. 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And He commanded us:
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
But without the realization of Oneness which is the knowledge of the Holy Ghost we exist in a state of separation from God and each other. This state creates selfish desires that precludes love and it highlights the appearance of differences between us and we are destined to judge these differences.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
You asked “What do you want now?”
You know that you have caught a glimpse of the truth when you begin to experience a measure of the freedom that the Lord promised.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
At this stage I feel compelled to share my understanding.
http://www.ttonline.org/threads/12021-Denominationalism-or-Discipleship
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TRWord
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06/25/2011 07:58 |
Ted wrote:
TR, you skipped over my posting on Hebrews. It clearly teaches that we are saved by the blood sacrifice of Jesus for transgressions we commit, and that to reject this teaching is to be in danger of eternal torment. It was about 12 messages back. Will you please re-read that and comment?
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Ted you and I are of two different understandings. You are of the common understanding. Your understanding of the scripture is the one we are all taught in the beginning. But there are higher and higher understandings of the word. The common understanding is the beginning of wisdom and it’s usually steeped with the fear of God.
Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
The common understanding robs us of the knowledge of God and the promises of Jesus Christ, but it’s up to the individual if he or she want to seek a higher understanding.
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Ted C
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06/25/2011 11:37 |
The understanding is clear. There are only four options for these passages in Hebrews:
1. The writer of Hebrews was incorrect.
2. The writer of Hebrews was intentionally deceptive.
3. The passage has been mistranslated and so a portion of the New Testament cannot be trusted.
4. The writer of Hebrews is correct and we are saved from transgressions of the law by the literal blood sacrifice of Jesus in our place - which if we reject, we will be subject to active torment in the hereafter.
Those are the only four options. If what you are saying is true, the choice has to be one of the first three: Either error, intentional deception, or the New Testament cannot be trusted.
Here are the passages in King James Version instead of New American Standard Version. If anything, the King James Version translates the passages even more sternly:
Hebrews 9:15-26 "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.' Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Hebrews 10:19-31 "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The LORD will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
So which is it? Are these passages in error, intentionally deceptive or untrustworthy?
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Ray
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06/25/2011 16:51 |
TR,
Thanks for sharing. Telling your personal story makes things come alive. We become more than foes in word play when we open our hearts. I know you tried to make the point with me that this is not word play, but I disagree. If you are not really a person to me then you will never have any import and the things you write in order to persuade of something you believe are really pretty silly, a game. But when there is heart, that is where Christ lives, whether we agree about words or not.
"What if I could prophesy and understand all secrets and all knowledge? And what if I had faith that moved mountains? I would be nothing, unless I loved others."
More qusetions:
Your name is Chris, correct. I think I saw Tom write that, but I dunno.
Are entries at the the Tobago/Trinidad Community discussion of Denominationalism or Discipleship yours? Are you "Like it is?"
You wrote about a problem you could not resolve, "At some point I began to see denominationalism as the problem." What is the problem that you are talking about here? Do you see it as unacceptable that people have differences about what is important to them?
What is "Christian Mysticism" and how does it express itself in your life? How does love display itself in this religion?
God's house are "levels of understanding" and you are at a high level, correct?
Here's another one you to consider:
Revelation 1:5
May kindness and peace be yours from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness. Jesus was the first to conquer death, and he is the ruler of all earthly kings. Christ loves us, and by his blood he set us free from our sins.
What do you think?
Love wins, no?
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