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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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"Love Wins" - a reader review from yours truly...
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as posted on my facebook page:
okay, to be fully honest, I am a little late writing the review. Nonetheless, that is for the best, I'm sure. It is best to write reviews after there has been time to contemplate and examine how it lines up with one's beliefs - and by beliefs I mean what is really in your heart, not just what you spout out of your brain.
Having said that, Rob Bell wrestles with both the heart and the intellect, something that we all do, especially in regards to faith. Now, like many, I grew up having been taught there was a hell that was eternal - and that eternal meant 'forever' - another way of saying 'day after day' - a category of time, in other words. Now, in chapter 2, Rob Bell tackles the meaning of the phrase 'eternal life' in context of the time period - what eternal life probably meant in the eyes of everyone who thought of it at the turn - of - the - millenia backwater provincial known as Judea.
I apologize in advance for any offense taken, and ask for honest questions, even grilling, to understand what I'm saying - as you doubtless know, most problems arise out of a misunderstanding or bad communication, and I'm no communications expert!
"Another way of saying 'life in the age to come' in Jesus' day was to say 'eternal life.' In Hebrew the phrase is olam habah."(P.31)
After which Bell got into a number of scriptures about a renewed world, such as in Isaiah ch 2 about 'beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks'.(p. 32)
"Life in the age to come. IF this sounds like heaven on earth, that's because it is. Literally."(p. 33)
furthermore, Bell takes from Isaiah again about 'all the nations'. "That's everybody. That's all those different skin colors, languages, dialects, and accents; all those kinds of food and music; all those customs, habits, patterns, clothing, traditions, and ways of celebrating -
multiethnic,
multisensory,
multieverything.
later on that page (p. 34), he puts it bluntly - 'A racist would be miserable in the world to come.'
but back to 'eternal'.
"Aion is often translated as 'eternal' in english, which is an altogether different word from 'forever'."(p. 58)
there are two meanings, Rob Bell says, of aion. The first being a period of time - an 'age'. We've talked about that one already.
The second meaning is "a bit more complex and nuanced, because it refers to a particular intensity of experience that transcends time."(p. 57)
for example, think about school. The class is boring as, well, hell. The time seems to slow down, and you continuously look at the clock. It feels like it's taking forever! We don't mean 'forever' as in 365 days a year over and over again - no, we mean 'forever' in the '2nd definition of aion' sense.
On the opposite side of the emotion scale, when you are in love, time speeds up when you talk, when you kiss, when you embrace - hours feel like minutes. (man, that pissed me off when I was younger!)
Using these examples (I paraphrased and added my own language - Rob Bell is pretty easy on language, unlike me...)
Rob bell brings it to a conclusion:
"Let me be clear: heaven is not forever in the way that we think of forever, as a uniform measurement of time, like days and years, marching endlessly into the future...this is why a lot of translators choose to translate aion as 'eternal'. By this they don't mean the literal passing of time; they mean transcending time, belonging to another realm altogether..."
and Jesus, Rob Bell notes, uses the word 'heaven' for three things:
1st - a substitute for God.
2nd - a future merging of heaven and earth.
3rd - our present, eternal, intense experiences of joy, peace, and love in this life, this side of death and the age to come.
having read this, my concept of eternal was changed. eternal can be both a time, but also a state of being. Refreshing!
So then, what about hell? The point where everyone gangs up on Bell and calls him a heretic deserving of the flames? (denying hell, just so you know, is nowhere condemned in scripture. Only denying Jesus' messiah - ship is condemned - "And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. Anyone who denies the Son doesn't have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."(1 John 2:22 - 23))
anyways, side note aside, Rob Bell takes quite a swing at Hell.
"God is loving and kind and full of grace and mercy - unless there isn't confession and repentance and salvation in this lifetime, at which point God punishes forever...Is that what Jesus taught?"(p. 64)
whew, things are heating up! Bell, throughout the book, doesn't particularly spare the conservatives at large from prods and pokes, which is the one point I disapprove of - however, having said that, many people probably don't want to listen to someone who defends the established church, so perhaps it's not 'how people are saved, but that they are?
at this point, Rob Bell mentions the three words used in the Bible to describe 'hell'. The first is Sheol. I know myself that this word means 'place of the dead' - a poetic way of saying 'grave'. For example: "the chords of Sheol entangled me"(Psalm 18 NRSV), and Psalm 16 - "you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead" (commonly a messianic reference)
the greek word for sheol was Hades. That's the second word occasionally translated 'hell'. In fact, in Revelation, the last book in the bible (and possibly unfulfilled prophecy, depending on your interpretation), Jesus says "I hold the keys of death and Hades".(Revelation 1:18 NIV)(translated 'the grave in NLT)
(notice my translation bouncing. not my intention...I prefer NLT)
anyone who studies the old testament and its hebrew commentary will find that hebrews have notoriously little to say about life after death. Sheol, after all, sounds somewhat 'pagan' - pagans believe that life after life is an eerie echo of our life lived before death - kind of like the glare on an old tv screen after it is turned off. Sheol has that air of mystery about it.
The final word is everyone's favorite: "Gehenna". Jesus says this is where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth [the outer darkness]", and where "the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched[does not extinguish]".
Guess what 'Gehenna' is?
a trash dump outside Jerusalem.
being a trash dump, there were always worms. There were always lighted fires too. Along the edges of the heap [the outer darkness, especially at night], wild animals fought over scraps of food. (gnashing of teeth)
'where the worms never die, and the fire is not quenched, gnashing of teeth....'
being thrown into the trash heap is not pleasant. Hurling yourself into a trash heap is not pleasant. Nonetheless, this is what Rob Bell argues is precisely what happens to people who have rejected Christ. By christ I don't mean high - church dogmatism, self - righteousness, or bad church music, or handing off money (with all due respect, honestly, to all of those things, the last one in particular is how churches are able to function.) By Christ I mean, well...Christ! People always have their reasons - bad reasons, Rob Bell agrees, but reasons nonetheless.
what is hell? "Have you ever sat with a woman while she talked about what it was like to be raped? How does a person describe what its like to hear a five year old boy whose father just committed suicide ask: 'when is daddy coming home?" How does a person describe that unique look, that ravaged, empty stare you find in the eyes of a cocaine addict?"
That is hell. 'that sounds underwhelming.' Really? It sounds quite overwhelming enough for me. How about in Rwanda, where children walk around without arms, or wheel around without legs or hands? They were amputated by guerillas or government forces so that years later he would have to live with the reminder of what was done to him by those men. That is Hell.
A person who loses his humanity and becomes an angry, bitter monster?
That's hell.
I didn't care for the 9/11 attacks. Those dead people were just another number to me, one I carefully compared with another number - the number killed at Pearl Harbor.
Until I heard the testimonies of the family members, and what they felt when their loved ones died.
we don't ask for much in life, after a while. And when a loved one, a life's companion, is taken from us, by some religious extremist who was trained to hate, how would we feel then?
Hell.
why would people reject christ?
depends on the Christ.
the one who demanded serbs to herd muslims into a mosuqe and burn it? No serbian muslim would ever want to serve such a monster.
the Christ that the pastor sang worship songs to as he ravaged the young girl?
that grown up woman would never worship such an animal.
the one who hates fags?
see if a homosexual, or someone with homosexual friends, wants anything to do with such a jerk.
the one who conquered even death through love? Who commands us not to judge or we will be judged? The one who is the champion of the weak? who is "far from the proud"? the only truly Just ruler?
nobody can resist him. He is the true christ. There are many impostors, but only one genuine brand.
The rich man was in hell because he demanded lazarus to dip water to cool his tongue. He still imagined Lazarus was his servant in the new world, and therefore it was a chasm nobody could cross - the chasm of a sick heart, in Luke 16.
Hell is a world where racists are on equal terms with blacks. Where Ty Cobb is equal with Ray Charles. How much would Ty hate that? Depends on how much he has changed since death.
Hell is a world where tyrants have no power over others.
Hell, in a word, Rob Bell insists, is here, and is there.
but is it forever?
Rob Bell says 'no'. Why? Because, he argues, a hell forever would indicate that God failed to "draw all men to him" when he was lifted up (John 3), and it would mean his purpose was thwarted - "not wanting anyone to perish, but wanting all to come to repentance".
so what does it all mean? how do we handle all of this? What do we think of Rob Bell and his opinion? Depends on who you are. Honestly, I don't think any of us have it all right about what happens after death. The Bible says what we might think about hell, and as Rob Bell evidences in this book, even those beliefs can be so widely differing. But experience is altogether different - I think we have glimpses perhaps into both states in this life myself, but I may personally be with Rob Bell on a non - 'forever' hell, or at least a place where people eternally choose hell, and aren't prevented from coming ultimately to salvation.
the only problem with a lot of answers to Rob Bell's book are that they assert they are an evangelical response to Rob Bell. Rob Bell is a self - identified evangelical. Then again, to plant a church, you kind of have to be evangelical. Hmm...
anyway, great, challenging read, and for me, immensely refreshing!
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Bibleman 07/08/2011 22:47 |
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Russ
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07/18/2011 23:30 |
Will have to try and read this book eventually. Deb posted in random area another book on subject from Francis Chan calle "erasing hell" It comes to a much different conclusion than Rob Bell. I tend to like his (francis) humility on this and he takes on all these passages and comes to a much different view. I know we have a hard time holding the tension of the loving, good God who we see revealed in Jesus and his mercy with the Holy, just God that allows people who do not chose him to be eternally separated. We tend to all want to lean to the view that Rob Bell has come to, but is that the right view? For as it says in Isaiah 55, Gods ways are not our ways, nor are this thoughts our thoughts but they are higher than the heavens from ours. I think probably both books need to be read and we need to be humble and cast ourselves on the love and mercy of our Holy and Just Father in heaven who is far above us but who is very, very good. Like C.S Lewis pens in the Chronicles of Narnia when the children ask is Aslan safe? They are told no he is not safe, but he is very, very Good!
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Kelley
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07/25/2011 05:11 |
I like what you've done with your thoughts on this, James, even for such a heart wrenching topic. Thank you for posting.
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Kelley
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09/16/2011 16:48 |
This was sent to me in my email today from a fellow DABber and so I am posting it and sending it on to all. I haven't read all of it yet, but what I have read strikes a firm chord in me, both in a scholarly way and a moral way.
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
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Kelley
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09/16/2011 16:55 |
Russ, Isaiah 55 which you have quoted, if looked at in context is talking about God's MERCY when He makes that claim.
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