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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Catholica
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10/17/2011 17:06 |
In fact, Christ was both a sacrifice AND someone whom we are called to imitate, at least that is what the Catholic faith has always held, from the time of Jesus on.
You haven't read the book, Imitation of Christ, have you?
BOOK ONE
THOUGHTS HELPFUL IN THE LIFE OF THE SOUL
The First Chapter
IMITATING CHRIST AND DESPISING ALL VANITIES ON EARTH
HE WHO follows Me, walks not in darkness," says the Lord.[1] By these words of Christ we are advised to imitate His life and habits, if we wish to be truly enlightened and free from all blindness of heart. Let our chief effort, therefore, be to study the life of Jesus Christ.
The teaching of Christ is more excellent than all the advice of the saints, and he who has His spirit will find in it a hidden manna. Now, there are many who hear the Gospel often but care little for it because they have not the spirit of Christ. Yet whoever wishes to understand fully the words of Christ must try to pattern his whole life on that of Christ.
What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.
This is the greatest wisdom -- to seek the kingdom of heaven through contempt of the world. It is vanity, therefore, to seek and trust in riches that perish. It is vanity also to court honor and to be puffed up with pride. It is vanity to follow the lusts of the body and to desire things for which severe punishment later must come. It is vanity to wish for long life and to care little about a well-spent life. It is vanity to be concerned with the present only and not to make provision for things to come. It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides.
Often recall the proverb: "The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor the ear filled with hearing."[2] Try, moreover, to turn your heart from the love of things visible and bring yourself to things invisible. For they who follow their own evil passions stain their consciences and lose the grace of God.
BOOK FOUR
AN INVITATION TO HOLY COMMUNION
The Eighth chapter
THE OFFERING OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS; OUR OFFERING
THE VOICE OF CHRIST.
AS I offered Myself willingly to God the Father for your sins with hands outstretched and body naked on the cross, so that nothing remained in Me that had not become a complete sacrifice to appease the divine wrath, so ought you to be willing to offer yourself to Me day by day in the Mass as a pure and holy oblation, together with all your faculties and affections, with as much inward devotion as you can.
What more do I ask than that you give yourself entirely to Me? I care not for anything else you may give Me, for I seek not your gift but you. Just as it would not be enough for you to have everything if you did not have Me, so whatever you give cannot please Me if you do not give yourself.
Offer yourself to Me, therefore, and give yourself entirely for God -- your offering will be accepted. Behold, I offered Myself wholly to the Father for you, I even gave My whole Body and Blood for food that I might be all yours, and you Mine forever.
But if you rely upon self, and do not offer your free will to Mine, your offering will be incomplete and the union between us imperfect. Hence, if you desire to attain grace and freedom of heart, let the free offering of yourself into the hands of God precede your every action. This is why so few are inwardly free and enlightened -- they know not how to renounce themselves entirely.
My word stands: "Everyone of you that doth not renounce all that he possesseth, cannot be My disciple."
If, therefore, you wish to be My disciple, offer yourself to Me with all your heart.
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Calico
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10/17/2011 17:08 |
James, you do well in pointing out a problem with the premise of Christopher's post: the limitation of the "or" in the title of the thread; as in "Example OR Sacrifice."
By Scripture, Ephesians 5:1 & 2 would cite both to be true: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. and walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."
The limitation seems to be used to make Scripture fit a theological construct which you have tried to present on other occasions, several times before, Christopher, my friend.
Praying with you,
Tom
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Ray
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10/18/2011 00:38 |
Good catch, Tom.
example:
John 13:14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.
sacrifice:
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
my all in all:
acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
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TRWord
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10/18/2011 09:26 |
Many contemporary Christians insist that Jesus Christ was both a sacrifice and the example that we should follow. In practice however allegiance to one negates the other.
As in the Lord’s day there were the Jews who believed in Him and there were those who believed in “the offering of a sacrifice as atonement for sin.” The latter were those who had problems with His teaching and eventually sought His death.
Jesus Christ admonished us against worshiping Him in vain, (Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7) but contemporary Christianity continues to ignore this fact.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23KJV)
Just like the Jews of His day Jesus has divided us into those who worship Him in vain and those whom He called the true worshipers.
He said:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24KJV)
“The TRUTH that Jesus Christ came to reveal” is the absolute requirement for true worship.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32KJV)
The belief in the need for a sacrifice is a hinderance to the discovery of “the TRUTH that Jesus came to reveal” because most contemporary Christians are convinced that believing “Jesus was sacrificed as atonement for their sins” is the truth.
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Bibleman
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10/18/2011 10:01 |
you are right, TRWord, that many christians worship Jesus in vain (and many more lost people worship their idols in vain as well!). However, I do not believe that 'sacrifice' and 'moral example' are examples of ideas we should divide into two. I consider them parts of a whole - parts, that is, of redemption and saving grace.
as the verse goes (which I conveniently cannot find), we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. It is the cookie cutter christianity, this is true, that treats salvation like it is a one time event, when it is in fact continuous. These are the people who box in Jesus and stick him in their pocket, and they miss out on so many good things in this life.
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Catholica
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10/18/2011 14:02 |
TRWord, you said "allegiance to one negates the other". I don't see how you come to that conclusion, but I would hate to have allegiance to the imitation of Christ if it negates His sacrifice.
It is easy to have allegiance to both, because Jesus is a sacrifice and our lives are a sacrifice as well.
Colossians 1
24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Our participation in Christ sufferings is mandatory and effectual for the salvation of the world.
Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, _if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him._
Luke 9
22 He said, "The Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised."
23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.
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Eddy Keller
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10/18/2011 15:07 |
This is an interesting thread TRWord . I am trying to come up to speed with what is being said but I am finding some disconnect. It is hard sometime for the right tone to come across in writing so please accept I am not trying to sound combative, argumentative or like I have some hidden agenda – I genuinely want to understand what you are saying and need some help getting there.
One:
What was the purpose of Christ’s death on the Cross? You make the statement:
“Jesus Christ went to the cross to reveal “THE TRUTH” (the law of the supremacy of Spirit over matter) and not as payment to a God of vengeance for human wrong doings.”
What exactly is the law of supremacy of Spirit over matter? What does that revelation mean to us as believers?
Two:
You say:
“Contemporary wisdom however is that Jesus Christ was a sacrifice for sin and not the example that we should imitate. This is a continuation of the old Hebrew beliefs that predate the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
I would not quantify the wisdom as just contemporary – the belief that Christ’s death served at the atonement for the sin’s of man comes straight out of the New Testament.
Hebrew beliefs before and during the life of Christ were that to atone for the sin of man and to bring one back into union with God there must be sacrifices. Not that they aren’t there but I have not seen any early Jewish writings that said the Messiah whom they were awaiting was going to come and die for their sins. I think there are valid arguments that the Old Testament when read from a New Testament perspective the atonement Christ provides is predicted but that's a later thought.
Is your statement that the Hebrew belief in and custom of sacrifice as atoning for sin was an incorrect practice in man relationship to God so Christ’s being a sacrifice/atonement for sin is just a continuation of this mistake?
Three:
“As in the Lord’s day there were the Jews who believed in Him and there were those who believed in “the offering of a sacrifice as atonement for sin.” The latter were those who had problems with His teaching and eventually sought His death.”
Again I am confused – where do you find this?
When Jesus told His disciples He was to die they didn’t get it – nobody understood it really until the empty tomb and His appearance after. Those who sought His death sought it not because they (in this case the Jewish leaders) thought Him “an offering of a sacrifice as atonement for sin” but because they thought Him a blasphemer , a nut job in the highest declaring Himself not just the Messiah who had been promised but God Himself.
Four:
“The TRUTH that Jesus Christ came to reveal” is the absolute requirement for true worship.”
Help me here – what is this truth Jesus came to reveal? Siprit over matter?
Thanks again for starting this thread - it is interesting reading and a good discussion.
--Eddy
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Lanny Carlson
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10/19/2011 09:44 |
I agree that we often make the "western mistake" of reducing everything to "either-or." One of the contributions of eastern thought is the idea of "both-and," and that would seem to apply here.
Jesus definitely was and is an example; but he was also a sacrifice.
Where we may tend to disagree, however
is over the nature and meaning of his sacrifice.
In a sense his sacrifice IS his example.
As Catholica said,
"Jesus is a sacrifice and our lives are a sacrifice as well."
As Jesus said, "If anyone wants to come after me,
let him take up his own cross and follow me."
The fact that Jesus "took up" his cross
underscores the fact that he didn't HAVE to die.
He could have avoided the cross
if he forsook all he had been saying and doing
as he demonstrated the meaning of God's love,
if he had stopped saying and doing the things that so offended his enemies -
violating the Sabbath, reaching out to sinners, lepers, women, foreigners,
teaching that God's way is the way of love and non-violence and peace.
But he refused to compromise with religious or political authority,
and accepted the consequences, sacrificing his own life
as a testimony to the Truth of Love.
And the Resurrection was God's affirmation
of the way, truth, and life we see in Jesus,
whose example we are in turn to follow.
That doesn't mean, however, that we have to believe in Jesus' sacrifice
as a "substitutionary atonement," that he was taking our guilt and punishment,
that he was "paying the price" for our sins.
TR suggests that such beliefs were
"a continuation of the old Hebrew beliefs the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Eddy doesn't disagree, but says that
" Hebrew beliefs before and during the life of Christ were that to atone for the sin of man and to bring one back into union with God there must be sacrifices."
But I would have to disagree with that characterization even of the Old Testament.
Yes, the sacrificial system was very much a part of Old Testament beliefs,
practices that in fact predate the Old Testament and in which their neighbors also engaged.
But even in the Old Testament that system was being called into question.
The prophets and Psalmist in particular
have God rejecting the sacrifices of his people -
especially where they weren't accompanied by obedience to God's will -
even saying things like,
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps 51:17
"I desire not sacrifices but mercy," Hosea 6:6 (quoted by Jesus in Matt 9:13)
"Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required." (Ps 40:7)
"For Thou delightest not in sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering." (Ps. 51:18)
As for sacrifices being required for atonement and the forgiveness of sins,
time and again in the Old Testament people are forgiven simply by repenting and asking for forgiveness.
In 2 Chronicles we read, "If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Not a word about sacrifice as a requirement for forgiveness!
If sacrifice was indeed a requirement for forgiveness,
what do we say of the Jews who lived in exile
or the Jews after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD,
or Jews today - do they believe their sins go unforgiven
because they can no longer make sacrifices?
Yes, the letter to Hebrews uses the imagery of sacrifice,
because it was written to Hebrews for whom that imagery would have made sense.
But if making sacrifices wasn't/isn't essential to Jewish thinking even today,
the concept of substitutionary atonement seems to me to miss the point.
Jesus died to demonstrate the truth and the depth of Love,
and to call and empower us to "go and do likewise,"
bearing any cost in order to bear witness to the Truth of God's love
in our own lives.
Yes, Jesus "died for our sins,"
but not, I believe, as a substitute or as a payment,
but in order to draw us to the one who offers Divine forgiveness for our sins
and empowers us to "go and sin no more."
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John T
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10/19/2011 18:40 |
Oh my. That was my first reaction, but I shouldn't leave it at that.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus paid the price. It states that he bought us for a price, that we have received imputed righteousness. That is, our sins were imputed, or put upon Christ, and His righteousness was imputed, or put upon us.
I will never understand how people who listen to the Bible every day in this community can continue to diminish what Christ did for us. Christ even prayed that if there were another way that he could bypass the cross, but went through with it showing that it was the way. Just like the image of Christ portrayed in the story of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts, Christ's blood is what saves us. We listen to these stories every day!
Sadly,
John
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Lanny Carlson
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10/19/2011 19:58 |
I don't understand how understanding what Jesus did for us
in a way different from your understanding
in any way diminishes what Christ did for us.
It cost him EVERYTHING!
Yes, he prayed that if there was any other way, he could bypass the cross.
But as I stated, there WAS no other way -
to avoid the cross would him meant giving in to the ways of his enemies;
and continuing to be faithful to God's ways of love
made the cross inevitable.
But he remained faithful, anyway,
to bear witness to the Truth of God's ways of love and peace,
ways validated by God in the resurrection.
Jesus said,
"if I be lifted up, I will draw all people to myself."
The power of his example changed everything.
And in my understanding,
to see the meaning of the cross as a sacrifice
in keeping with an Old Testament understanding of sacrifice
which was already being rejected in the Old Testament
and is certainly not a part of modern Judaism
"diminishes what Christ did for us."
I'm not saying this to repudiate your deeply held beliefs.
This is a broad community, and a wide variety of perspectives are represented here.
I'm simply pointing out that my perspective is also a legitimate way
to understand "what Jesus did for us,"
and in no way diminishes the meaning of the cross.
Indeed, for me it gives the cross tremendous meaning and power.
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