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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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10/19/2011 21:10 |
As has been suggested by me on several other threads which have often discussed this topic, here is a decent reference book http://www.christianbook.com/the-nature-the-atonement-four-views/gregory-boyd/9780830825707/pd/825700?item_code=WW&netp_id=460966&event=ESRCG&view=details.
Certainly not the only views, but a good primer for decent informing. There are additional perspectives that can be found elsewhere.
Praying with you,
Tom
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TRWord
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10/20/2011 04:03 |
Hi Eddy
In his book “Bible Mystery And Bible Meaning” Thomas Troward began by saying:
“The Bible is the Book of the Emancipation of Man. The emancipation of man means his deliverance from sorrow and sickness, from poverty, struggle, and uncertainty, from ignorance and limitation, and finally from death itself. This may appear to be what the euphuistic colloquialism of the day would call “a tall order,” but nevertheless it is impossible to read the Bible with a mind unwarped by antecedent conceptions derived from traditional interpretation without seeing that this is exactly what it promises, and that it professes to contain the secret whereby this happy condition of perfect liberty may be attained.”
This is my view of the Bible. I believe it’s our operating manual. The problem is to approach the Bible in this manner requires a certain degree of independent thinking. Contemporary Christianity demands that we interpret the Bible through the preconception of “Christ as the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.”
Christianity is the worlds largest religion with over two billion believers and now over two thousands years after Jesus Christ the world is becoming increasingly more savage daily and most contemporary Christians are certainly not free.
Why? Because this preconception dictates the believer approach to the Bible.
Putting this preconception aside allows us to ask the question; If Jesus Christ wasn’t a sacrifice then why did He go to the cross?
Using the parable of the good shepherd (John 10:1-18) Jesus characterizes His message; “the new covenant” as the door of the sheep and all that came before Him; “the old covenant” as thieves and robbers.
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. (John 10:7-8KJV)
The old understanding “the belief in the sacrifice” does not offer us everlasting life nor does it offer us the promises of His teaching.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12KJV)
Before the coming of Jesus Christ we did not know God. We believed in the sacrifice because we had a false image of God, one of un-forgiveness and vengeance. Jesus came to reveal the true image of God as love.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (John 10:11KJV)
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10:15KJV)
Further He emphasizes that His death and resurrection is an act of love done for our benefit. He also makes it clear that it’s a demonstration of His authority over death. An authority that He received from His Father.
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18KJV)
Jesus came to reveal the TRUTH of the supremacy of spirit over matter.
When He gave us the keys to the kingdom we learned that whatsoever we bind or loose on earth is bound or loose in heaven. In other words when we give authority to the things of the earth “matter”, we deny the power of heaven “the Spirit:” And when we acknowledge the power of heaven “the Spirit,” we gain authority over the things of the earth.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19KJV)
This is the TRUTH that sets us free.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32KJV)
Again here the Jews were asking for a sign that proved what He said was true and notice He answered that the only sign they’ll have would be the sign of the prophet Jonas.
Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection is the ultimate proof of the supremacy of Spirit over matter.
Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:38-40KJV)
And here Paul shows how our faith in this TRUTH is our faith in eternal life.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11KJV)
Christopher
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Eddy Keller
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10/20/2011 05:55 |
Okay this is a fluff reply - I don't really say anything to add to the discussion save avoiding future feather ruffling.
Christopher - thank you for your reply. I want to take time to think through your last response as I am one of those who sees the the death of Christ on the cross as a space/time event which paid it all (pretty much what John T stated). While I have come to this position through much study, prayer and, at times, struggling, I really welcome the chance to understand your viewpoint. I am not incredibly astute but I have yet to engage in dialogue with brothers (or sisters) in the faith on matters like this where I did not come away better informed and with, hopefully, a new friend (even when we don't agree).
Tom, many thanks for the book reference. I am sure with your time on these forums you have seen this topic come up over and again and no doubt many get their knickers in a twist over the differing. With the magic that is Kindle I was able to get the book in minutes and begin reading. It looks very good so far.
Lanny, I have really appreciated your comments. Given my own bias I was, like John T, a bit open mouthed at your replies but I am so thankful you jumped in the mix. You write well and I appreciate get to understand your position better.
James, Andre, and Ray - all the above applies. I personally need to hear from others in the faith to keep me honest and focused on where I should focus.
Many thanks,
Eddy
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Ted C
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10/20/2011 13:40 |
2 Chronicles 7:14 doesn't mention a word about sacrifice? Just include the two verses before it as well:
"Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, 'I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.'"
The sacrifice is clearly explained in Hebrews, so that one must reject the Bible having been truly inspired in order to reject the doctrine of sacrifice. One must reject the Word, who is Christ.
Hebrews 9:22-26
"And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
2 Timothy 3:16,17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 5:45,46
"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
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Lanny Carlson
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10/20/2011 14:56 |
Ted,
You quote Hebrews,
"without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
That's what it says, but it's simply not true.
It contradicts what we see time and time and time again in the Scriptures,
including the Old Testament.
Look again, for example, at the Psalms I quoted:
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps 51:17
"I desire not sacrifices but mercy," Hosea 6:6 (quoted by Jesus in Matt 9:13)
"Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required." (Ps 40:7)
"For Thou delightest not in sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering." (Ps. 51:18)
As for 2 Chronicles 7:14,
sacrifice is not listed in that verse but two verses earlier.
And even there, it isn't mentioned in relation to forgiveness.
There were all kinds of sacrifices for all kinds of purposes.
And in verse 14, sacrifice is not mentioned as a requirment for forgiveness -
humility, prayer, seeking God's face, and turning from their wicked ways
are the things that precede God's hearing, turning, and healing.
As for 2 Timothy 3:16,
an alternate translation of 2 Timothy 3:16 says
"Every Scripture inspired by God is also useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."
Obviously, the writer is referring to the Old Testament -
the New Testament did not yet exist,
and the Letter to Hebrews was certainly not yet considered Scripture.
Also, many writings circulating at that time and considered inspired
were laterrejected as authoritative.
I believe, too, that things have to considered contextually.
Brian has pointed out time and again that some verses in the Old Testament
have to be understood within the context of the culture of the time,
and I would suggest that the same is true of Hebrews.
As I said, it was written to people to whom the imagery of sacrifice made sense.
But that imagery uses an Old Testament understanding of sacrifice
which was already being rejected in the Old Testament,
is certainly not a part of modern Judaism,
and doesn't make sense to most people today.
Yes, Jesus died because of human sin
and in order to show us the "more excellent way" of love.
But that doesn't require believing in a vengeful God
who demanded blood-sacrifice before He offers forgiveness.
Again, I'm not writing this to repudiate you or your deeply held beliefs.
We are a large, broad community, and we respect -
and sometimes respectivefully disagree with - one another.
Thank you for sharing your views,
and thank you for reading mine.
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Ted C
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10/20/2011 15:55 |
Lanny, do you believe that Jesus actually said, "if you do not believe his [Moses'] writings, how will you believe My words?"
And if you do believe that Jesus said this, what specific text was Jesus referring to, speaking to a Jewish audience, when He said, "his [Moses'] writings"?
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Lanny Carlson
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10/20/2011 17:16 |
Ted,
I'm not much of a supporter of the Jesus Seminar,
so I don't believe in voting on whether or not Jesus actually said
what is recorded as his words in Gospels!
I do know there were no tape recorders around in those days,
and His words are sometimes slightly different in the various Gospels.
But I have no reason to doubt that the Gospel writers
sought to be faithful to the teachings of Jesus;
and even though they of course fashioned their Gospels
to reflect their own perspectives,
I am sure that Jesus did say the words
or something similar to the words you quoted from John 5:47.
As to what text Jesus was referring to,
I would guess Deuteronomy 18:15 -
"The Lord your God will raise up a prophet like me
from among your own brothers."
The verses ollowing describe the prophet
as speaking the word God gives him to speak,
and the people are commanded to listen to him.
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TRWord
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10/22/2011 06:16 |
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim. 3:16-17KJV)
The doctrine of salvation through the cross dictates which scripture is considered and how it’s interpreted. Led by the preconception of the sacrifice, contemporary Christians hang on to verses that seems to support this preconception and those that can be misinterpreted to do so. As a result they study the old testament, they then leap frog the teaching of Jesus Christ to Paul’s letters and end up totally unable to interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ “the Apocalypse.”
Throughout His ministry Jesus Christ was continually confronted by those Hebrews who believed that a sacrifice had to offered for the forgiveness of sin.
Example: Matthew 9: 1-17
The scribes and the Pharisees believed that a sacrifice had to be offered for the forgiveness of sin and they were very disturbed when they heard Jesus saying; “Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.”
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. (Matthew 9:2KJV)
And the scribes said within themselves; This man blasphemeth.
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. (Matthew 9:4-7KJV)
Here Jesus is saying that He has power on earth to forgive sin.
Notice below where He said go and learn what this mean: I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: Jesus is teaching here that forgiveness is an act of mercy which needs no sacrifice.
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew 9:12-13KJV)
With the sacrifice being such a prominent part of Hebrew tradition Jesus attempt also to separate His teaching and His death and resurrection which would come later from that tradition.
Using the parable of “new cloth unto an old garment” and “new wine in old bottles” He emphasized the incompatibility between His teaching and the old understanding.
No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. (Matthew 9:16-17KJV)
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Ted C
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10/22/2011 20:14 |
Finally getting a chance to respond back...
The term for Scriptures in John 5:39 is Strong's G1124, "graphes", which when used in plural (as it is in this verse) means "the Holy Scriptures". Speaking to a group of Jewish leaders (those seeking to kill him, v.18) in Jerusalem (v.1) during a feast (v.1), it's only natural that when Zhodhiates sees the word [Moses'] writings, which is Strong's G1120, "gramata", he interprets that to mean the Holy Scriptures. (The Complete Word Study Dictionary, New Testament. Zhodhiates, AMG International, 1993, p.381). So we're talking about the first five books of the Bible. This lines up with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Since Jesus clearly considered the Pentateuch to be authoritative, and to be that which testifies about Him, He obviously did not share the view that portions of the Old Testament were rejecting themselves. Jesus was not an adherent of Higher Criticism.
This being the case, when Jesus says, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day," and, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins," (John 6:54 and Mat 26:27,28 respectively) - combined with saying, "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many," (Mark 10:45) and, "it is these [Scriptures, the Pentateuch] that testify about Me," (John 5:39 - think about the nature of the Pentateuch) it becomes very clear that Jesus saw Himself as a literal sacrifice for sin.
Hebrews has been considered canonical since at least Carthage (397 AD) and likely before.
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Lanny Carlson
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10/22/2011 23:03 |
So, Ted,
You reject the idea of development within the Old Testament
and chose to ignore the Psalms and Prophets I cited
which clearly reject the notion of sacrifice as a requirement for forgiveness?
Are you suggesting that Jews, the people of the Book,
are wrong in no longer insisting on blood sacrifice
as a requirement for forgiveness?
And how do you reconcile the statement in Hebrews
that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood
with the fact that even in the Old Testament there are many examples
of people experiencing God's forgiveness through repentance?
For that matter,
what do you do with the fact that Jesus often said,
"You sins are forgiven,"
incurring the wrath of his enemies?
He didn't say, "Your sins will be forgiven
after I shed my blood on the cross."
He said, "Your sins are forgiven."
Indeed, He began his ministry repeating John the Baptist's message,
"Repent and believe the good news."
He didn't say, "Repent, even though you won't be forgiven
until I die on the cross."
He didn't say of the woman who washed his feet with her tears,
"Her great love shows that she knows her sins will be forgiven after I shed my blood on the cross," He said, "her sins have been forgiven."
He didn't say to the lame man lowered through the roof, "Your sins will be forgiven after I shed my blood as a sacrifice for your sins,"
He said, "Your sins are forgiven."
He didn't say to the woman caught in adultery,
"Neither do I condemn you;
or, at least, I won't condemn you after I die on the cross;
now, go and sin no more, though I know that's impossible."
He forgave her and told her to live a new life.
I don't want to prolong this discussion forever.
And I doubt that I'll change your mind.
That's OK.
I know you beliefs are deeply held.
I just want you to recognize that there is another way
of understanding the meaning of the Cross
which is just as legitimate as your point of view,
and which is held by people who are just as deeply committed to Jesus as Lord.
As for Jesus saying,
""Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished," in reality, He himself rejected portions of the Law -
He didn't observe all the laws regarding the Sabbath
(which got him in trouble with the Pharisees);
he rejected, or replaced, the Old Testament laws which allowed divorce;
he replaced the notion of revenge with the commandment of love.
("You have heard that it was said [in fact, it is written in the Law]
'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,'
but I say to you, "...turn the other cheeck...")
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