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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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01/30/2012 13:14 |
Hey all (Mobile, still here...?),
I am writing from my phone and can't really create the type of response I would like to post here. A couple of things to say quickly though:
- Andre and I had some time to briefly discuss some of this just this past Saturday, of which I was thankful and happy for?. I hope to share some things of what we engaged during our chat.
- Secondly, Bruxy recently used BOTH of these videos in a teaching. A closer listening to the ethos behind both videos will show that neither are at all speaking about DIFFERENT things. I would be willing to bet that if both of these men were to sit down to discuss their messages and methods, they would find a common resonance with one another.
- I believe that the first video is not to be taken as an indictment of the Catholic Church, but is perhaps better viewed as the young man expressing a "calling out of his own, " as it were: that mindless oblivious unquestioning rote is something the North American church in general is something that must be awoken from. Of course this would be true for Protestant churches AND the Catholic Church, and for my part in expression of myself here, I believe that religion as spoken of in the second video is not at all in contradiction to the point made in the first video.
The question is asked "are there any Christians in the Catholic Church?" and the answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question "are there any Christians in the Protestant churches?" The answer is: "Yes. Some."
Typing on a phone is tedious... :-P
Praying with you,
Tom
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Ray
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01/30/2012 16:17 |
"Make sense?" Yes it does. Thanks. It was the "something something" before the "staring at death" where I could not understand his words, however.
I don't agree with some of your assumptions.
"Yet Jesus /orders/ rituals to be performed." Did he? It seems so out of character to me. Does it really sound like something in His nature to you? Couldn't there possibly be something else He spoke of? He was always saying things that were much deeper than His followers could comprehend. Isn't that possible here? He seems so dedicated to things of the heart and Spirit. “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." You must agree that people fall into the trap of rituals taking the place of life in the Spirit? I see no ritual in this. I see no ritual in Him at all. He brings life to ritual, but he brings life to everything He touches.
"The "religion" that "man-1" refers to makes "religion" and "hypocrisy" one and the same" I didn't hear that from him at all, but it would explain the response.
"the blame is the individual, not religion itself." I just don't think man-1 was taking about an institution at all. He described religion as what he was doing to cover up his sin. He was describing the liar he had become, an individual liar. He never said an institution was lying to anyone. I agree, religion can help "form an even deeper bond with Christ," but it can be used to do quite the opposite and that was the point man-1 was making.
"beliefs were not to be made up over time, but rather rooted in and carried forth from the lips of Jesus" We must do the ritual of what he spoke when he walked as a man? That's why he came? I disagree, He's very much alive: Ps 32:8 "I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you."
What I'm getting at is as Eldredge writes, and I think it is the point of man-1:
For above all else, the Christian life is a love affair of the heart. It cannot be lived primarily as a set of principles or ethics.It cannot be managed with steps and programs. It cannot be lived exclusively as a moral code leading to righteousness. In response
to a religious expert who asked him what he must do to obtain real life, Jesus asked a question in return:
"What is written in the Law? . . . How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:26-28)
The truth of the gospel is intended to free us to love God and others with our whole heart. When we ignore this heart aspect of our faith and try to live out our religion solely as correct doctrine or ethics, our passion is crippled, or perverted, and the divorce of our soul from the heart purposes of God toward us is deepened. (The Sacred Romance, 8)
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Ray
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01/30/2012 16:26 |
Tom,
Please, expand on "neither are at all speaking about DIFFERENT things." What teaching did Bruxy use this? Can I listen?
Thanks.
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Catholica
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01/30/2012 16:29 |
Hi Ray, I plan to write more, but here is the part that you couldn't hear:
We all detest hypocrisy, and empty show is just the worst
But blaming religion for contradiction
Is like staring at death, and blaming the hearse.
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Calico
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01/30/2012 18:31 |
ok just on my way, and can only respond briefly
...and I see my phone auto-corrected "Monilv" to "Mobile," in my entry above... sorry Monilv, I hope you are still here.
Andre, Ray, we might be able to see that each of you are using the same word ("religion") and are - for the moment, at least - referring to different things. Overall, though, each of you seem to be (whether you may know it or not) heading in the same direction:
ie. from Andre - "In relation to hypocrisy, he is comparing 'hypocrisy' to 'death' and 'religion' to the 'hearse.' It's not the hearse's fault that there is someone dead inside it, and it is not religion's fault that there are hypocrites who attend church. Religion (at least my religion) teaches us to not be hypocrites, but that does not mean that some religious people aren't also hypocrites."
...and ie. from Ray - "He described religion as what he was doing to cover up his sin. He was describing the liar he had become, an individual liar. He never said an institution was lying to anyone. I agree, religion can help "form an even deeper bond with Christ," but it can be used to do quite the opposite and that was the point man-1 was making."
To that end: Ray, the new series that was begun at the start of January is called "Jesus By John," which is to be a 10yr. long study (I did say it, yes, as 10yrs.) of the Gospel of John.
If you click on www.themeetinghouse.ca and go to the Teaching tab, find the series and click on Pt. 3, "Spiritual Photosynthesis," and be sure to watch the videocast.
Both of the videos (this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY, and this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_tC4fv6FE) are referred to but are not directly shown in the videocast. We DID see both of them during the teaching, however... you will see the time demarcations that show where they were used... I think it's a rights/broadcasting issue with iTunes in not showing them in the publicly viewed videocast.
Enjoy, all... and Monilv, you can jump back in too; I pray that you will!
Tom
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Calico
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01/30/2012 18:32 |
Again, make sure it's the video, and not the audio.
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Ray
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01/31/2012 06:45 |
will do, thanks. And thanks for the D. Willard teaching on hearing God you posted somewhere recently. It's really, really good.
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Catholica
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01/31/2012 09:48 |
I'm thinking of starting a new thread so that we can break down the original poem and maybe come to an understanding through discussion. I think that would be useful.
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Ray
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01/31/2012 12:08 |
Bruxy said they are both saying, "move beyond he words to see the Word. We cling to the words, but acknowledge the words are never enough. They are stepping stones to get to the Person." I can see that.
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Ray
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01/31/2012 17:04 |
I thought he looked like he had gained a few pounds when he came out in the robe. He's such a good teacher. He uses memorable visual effects :)
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