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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Randy Riesenberger
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01/12/2012 13:21 |
First, I agree with all the great comments so far. "Seeing everything through the lens of Jesus" is always a good approach. Also looking at what fruit (thoughts, actions, etc) is brought out by different lines of thought or reasoning gives a good indication of from where they come (God or the enemy.) Check out John Eldredge's Beautiful Outlaw book for more on this idea if you like.
I don't intend to take this down a totally different path and it is not a perfect way to understand the Bible but I have always approached the Old Testament as God leading His people through the stages of birth, childhood, and adolescence in their/our maturity and the New Testament and Jesus leading us through our teen and young adult stages of maturity for the most part. What do I mean by this? Well, you can't reason with a toddler that if they walk in the street they will likely get hit by a car for example. You just let them know the street is bad, scold them when they stray there, and encourage them when they stay away from it and do other positive things. Now, the street isn't always a bad place. Just a bad place for a toddler. Later, when learning to ride a bike and graced with more understanding the street is ok but still dangerous. You need to learn to watch for cars and learn to stay on the side of the road, etc. Same street. Same dangers. Same parent. But what changed? The child and their understanding and development. Not at all meaning to call you immature or childish but all of our relationships and maturity with God are constantly growing and deepening if we attend to them. So, the depth of our understanding will go along with it. The child questions things and gets answers a child understands. Teenagers question things and get more mature answers. And so it goes on. In one of Pauls' letters he chastises a church that hasn't matured in their faith as they could have or should have and tells them they should be eating meat by now. So this idea of maturing in the faith and having a deeper meaning is biblical.
So what does this mean? If there is a particular passage that troubles you ask about it. We will all chew on it together. None of us has the final complete answer though. Just understanding as given by God for the level of maturity we have reached. We are not home in heaven yet so we still do not have perfect understanding. But after struggling to grow in my faith with Jesus as my guide for 42 years (so far) I can tell you that it just gets better the deeper you get in relationship with Him. So dig in! There are answers to be found!
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Calico
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01/12/2012 14:01 |
Welcome Randy, nice to have you jump in with this thread too!
This is a good post you've shared. Something else to consider too, for all who are reading/joining this thread: a friend of mine had offered that "the Old Testament can be seen as 'a record of what DOESN'T work,'" to which I would add "until Jesus comes and offers us the clearer view."
Blah, I had meant to return to this thread to write more, a week ago, and have been so busy with things... sorry!
Praying with you,
Tom
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Ray
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01/12/2012 22:34 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjmnoUKXaZM&feature=related
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Ray
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01/13/2012 08:36 |
this is the poem he refers to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY
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Perry
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01/13/2012 14:27 |
Monilv...
Every story that is told in the Bible has to be looked at in its entirety. There is always the “big picture” and often times we cannot see it if we stay within the storyline and the time period allotted. For instance, I’ve heard many say, “Why would God allow the killing of young boys in Bethlehem and the surrounding area during the time of Christ’s birth?... This is the shedding of innocent blood!” It does seem wrong if let in that time period… but if we fast-forward to today and realize the importance of the “full picture”… it often times becomes clearer… if not completely understood.
There are some instances within Scripture that seem difficult to understand the motive or the reason for what took place, but after studying the Word for years, with God’s help (Holy Spirit) I’ve come to better understand and see answers where I’d possibly didn’t before. It seems the older I become, and with the more knowledge I gain concerning Scripture the more the “big picture” starts to open up and become less obscured by my doubt and unbelief.
We (and I mean everyone) will never have a handle of everything… And for those who claim they do, they are only fooling themselves. For you to ask such bold questions... is evidence of how God is working a great work within you, even now. We are called to keep seeking God, keep praying to Him and to continually look to Him and ask Him for answers. In all due respect… take the words I say with a grain of salt… and look to God to give you the peace that passes all understanding… and one last thing… trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding…
Let us all trust Him more… thanks for giving me this lesson…
Perry
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Calico
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01/22/2012 22:35 |
Wonderful response here :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_tC4fv6FE
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Ray
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01/30/2012 10:01 |
Hi, Tom.
Your post been tugging at me way back in the background for a few weeks since you sent this "rebuttal" to 'Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus || Spoken Word.' Looks like they moved the clip I posted earlier, btw, but it is here now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY
I must confess, I've still not read Bruxy's book. I've always intended to do so, as I've always intended to do lots of things. I just want everyone to know that I don't hate the church. I know for a fact that we are not to leave fellowship, 1 Cor 12:14 'For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. church.' )
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1 Peter 2:9 'But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.' There isn't any singular expression here, the body is a group.
I think these two men are talking about two different things and I think that is what has been bugging me. How does man-1 describe his concern? He clearly describes his own hypocrisy and is encouraging people to know the Lord. I know for a fact that good people get religious and lose their daily walk with the Lord. So, his statement, "Jesus came to abolish religion" is not a statement that Jesus came to abolish the body. The statement is clearly that Jesus came to abolish "false religion," that thing that is often used to cover up the truth in a man's heart.
I can't count the number of times "Monilv-like" folks have posted and disappeared. I always wonder what happened to the fight they are having for their lives. I guess it is not for us to know, but to have faith that God is at work.
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Ray
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01/30/2012 11:17 |
Rats....no edit button.
I meant to include a man-2 comment, "Why I Love Religion, And Love Jesus," seems to be talking about the church as an institution of man. As I said, I don't have an issue with the structures that bring men together in fellowship. I just don't think that is what man-1 is talking about at all. man-2 almost accuses man-1 of atheist leanings and I think he misses the point completely. Sure, men do good acts via the church such as feeding the poor and Pr 14 says that honors God. They also murdered an estimated 4 million during the crusades in the name of the same God.
religion - "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices"
Practices can become empty is the message of man-1. man-2 seems to indicate that practices are really important and that Jesus endorses them. I don't see that in Jesus at all. I don't think when Jesus said to baptise he meant to get people wet. I think he meant to emerse them in the life of the living God. It can be an empty practice and people can begin to put their faith in such things. I don't think Jesus came to institutionalize anything. He came to bring the Kingdom and it won't be a human system.
I'll have to admit, man-2 looses me a bit. His line affirms man-1, "hypocrisy is the worst," something something "staring at death and blaming the hesrse." I don't know what the "something something" is, so maybe it's why I miss his point, but no matter what the words are, I can't make the connection to man-1's idea anyway.
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Catholica
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01/30/2012 12:27 |
Hi Ray,
Fr. Pontifex is a Catholic priest, and perhaps that I am Catholic I can provide understanding of what he said.
Fr. Pontifex is not referring to the church as an institution of man, but rather one that was instituted by a Man and that Man was God. I'm not sure what Fr. Pontifex meant when he referred to "atheistic opinions" but one might be suggesting the scandal that Jesus did not found religion. I have heard it before. The father points out important things, however, like rituals that Jesus /ordered/ his apostles to do, like the Lord's supper, and baptism. People who are against religion often see it purely for its rituals, and truly most people believe that rituals are tied inherently to religion, and that would not be a false belief. Yet Jesus /orders/ rituals to be performed. _That_ is evidence that Jesus founded a religion. That, and also the emphasis on believing the truth, and guarding the truth by the holy spirit. If one looks up the word "religion" in the Bible it is defined in part by a set of beliefs. Jesus certainly wanted us to believe what was true, a set of beliefs: religion is in part a set of beliefs. And those beliefs were not to be made up over time, but rather rooted in and carried forth from the lips of Jesus. Jesus had these disciples "latin root: discupulus, students" to whom he taught His Truth and then sent them forth teaching that Truth. That was another part of Jesus' religion. He also gave them the "keys to the kingdom" Matthew 16:18ff. The keys, in the Jewish mind, meant authority to manage a religious body through disciplines. There is a ton in Matthew that suggests religion, even if the word (which hadn't been invented yet at the time of the scriptures) was not directly used.
The "something something" he said was "staring at death and blaming the hearse". In relation to hypocrisy, he is comparing "hypocrisy" to "death" and "religion" to the "hearse". It's not the hearse's fault that there is someone dead inside it, and it is not religion's fault that there are hypocrites who attend church. Religion (at least my religion) teaches us to not be hypocrites, but that does not mean that some religious people aren't also hypocrites. The "religion" that "man-1" refers to makes "religion" and "hypocrisy" one and the same, but really they are not. It is /hypocrisy/ that man-1 is against, not actually religion itself. Make sense?
Certainly we all hate hypocrisy, and I think if we are honest, there are a lot of hypocrites out there. But the blame is the individual, not religion itself.
Finally, religion does not preclude relationship. In my experience, it enhances my relationship. Perhaps other people have not had that experience, I can't speak for them. But I know that, at least for the Catholic religion, the religion itself gives us the tools to form an even deeper bond with Christ than I believe possible without.
Anyway, that is my perspective.
Andre
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Catholica
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01/30/2012 12:30 |
Oops, I miswrote, I meant "look up the word 'religion' in the /dictionary/, not the Bible."
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