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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Marcie in MO
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04/29/2012 13:53 |
He is much more than our finite minds could ever imagine, yet you limit Him to the small bit He has chosen to reveal in scripture. Do you not believe He is much more than those words convey and capable of greater things than He has revealed in those words? If that was all He had to say, why would He continue to speak to us and reveal Himself to our hearts? I am not one who has encounters with God, but one time I clearly heard Him and He told me I make Him too small. I try not to continue in that erroneous mindset.
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Saint Grogan
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04/30/2012 02:42 |
Catholica wrote:
“First before anything, a clarification is in order. The Catholic Church does not teach, and faithful Catholics do *not* believe, by any means, that the partaking in the divine nature leads to a person being omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent”.
For a soul to do what you suggest they can upon entering Heaven, they would have to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent for the reasons I gave earlier. You said that the departed “saints” can hear millions of prayers because they are outside of time. This is contrary to Scripture. Recall that the martyrs in heaven will ask the question: "How long ... before... ?" (Revelation 6:9-10). Such a question presumes both time and the martyrs' subjection to it.
Partaking of the divine nature doesn’t mean that God grants the departed soul God-like abilities. The divine nature is the indwelling of Christ in the “living” individual. There is no question that God can enable communication between the living and the dead. The question is whether there is a reason to suppose that God does give the departed such an ability.
Catholica wrote:
“Here the psalm (Psalm 82:6) has God himself calling his people "gods". Therefore in some sense we are "gods"
Andre,
Jesus’ use of Psalm 82:6 was to establish a general principal, that it is not blasphemous for someone who has a divine commission to be called by a divine title. God referred to the Judges as “gods” because they, as God were commissioned by Him to sit in judgment over the people. The wording of the catechism (CCC460) doesn’t imply that the use of the term “Gods” is used in a similar manner as Psalm 82:6 or even figuratively. It suggests that we become gods or godlike. This is confirmed in the footnote provided from the quote by Athanasius who said, “"The Word became man so that we might be deified.'' Even you imply that, Andre.
Catholica wrote:
If one doesn't believe that the saints in heaven have been raised up by God to partake in the divine nature, then (as Jesus suggested for his own purposes) consider the works of the saints in heaven: the many miracles that have taken place by their intercession. If they do not perform the Father's works then don't believe me. The fact remains, however, that they do take part in the father's works through their intercession, and thousands and thousands of real miracles have taken place because of their prayers.
Andre,
You haven’t the slightest shred of evidence to link miracles on Earth to the intercession of imaginary “saints” in Heaven. Not the slightest. As I’ve stated before, God does not need other intercessors when there is Jesus. The Father appointed Him to represent His people as High Priest. It is His exclusive role as the Christ of God to mediate before the Father on our behalf. To say otherwise is to say that Christ is insufficient. You want to raise up the creature to the level of the creator. What an insult. To partake of the divine nature is not to raise man up and give him divine powers in Heaven.
Catholica wrote:
Another past-tense verb "bestowed" with regard to *promises*. These promises are fulfilled in the future: see the words "may come" and "after". Thereby this "partaking in the divine nature" has nothing to do with things that have already been received, a la "everything that makes for life and devotion", but rather promises to be fulfilled in the future. In short, the divine nature that Peter refers to has nothing to do with the things that have already been received, aka everything that makes for life and devotion. The partaking in the divine nature is a promise of something in the future.”
“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:3-4)
WOW!....Talk about someone selling you something.
The word used as “bestowed” or “given us” (dedoretai in the Greek) is a perfect tense verb and not a past tense verb (Strong’s Greek: 1433) and it means to “freely” give. Peter used the same verb in Mark 15:45 to describe the “giving” of Jesus’ body over to Joseph of Arimathea by Pontius Pilate.
The perfect tense also stresses the certainty of the fact and possession of the gift. The names Dorothy and Theodore come from this word and it means “God’s gift”. Let’s say that a word was used and it were a past tense verb. It would still read that the promises (made in the past) have (now) been “bestowed” on the believer. The context of the gift is expressed in the words “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” there is nothing in these verses that would suggest that departed spirits will be given attributes of God after they die.
Everything that has to do with living a Christian life and serving God has been “freely” given believers (in this life) as a gift. The word “promises” (epanggelma) is not talking about the promise but rather in its fulfillment. God has freely given us the things that he had promised believers in the Old Testament through the salvation which is in Jesus Christ. Peter is not making new promises for the future, he is proclaiming the fulfillment and present reality to his readers. “Having escaped the corruption (in this life) that is in the world” implies that God has made it possible for believers (In this life) to share in the new quality of life as a “partaker” in Christ’s victory over sin (escaping the corruption that is in the world) and death by having accomplished the promised salvation in Christ. I challenge everyone to research this for themselves and not just look at Roman Catholic sources.
The divine nature is not talking about having the attributes of deity but rather the indwelling of Christ Himself, something that is common among believers. The believer literally becomes
I’ll stick with my interpretation of 2 Peter 1:3-4 which is Christians, because they partake of the divine nature of Christ by his indwelling us are in a sense "made divine," not by changing our nature, but by Christ's indwelling.
Catholica wrote:
“Those in heaven have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:23) and have come to the fulness of that partaking in the divine nature.”
Those in Heaven have been made perfect through Christ. They have no further need of the “divine nature” because of Christ’s perfection of them. They are perfect because they are sinless. They are not given supernatural powers like hearing the prayers of the dead in foreign languages nor do they have the power to protect or guide the living.
Repent people. All of your devotion and prayers belong to God alone. That which you give to imaginary “saints” is God’s because He is worthy to receive it all. The Father does not need to enlist the aid of intercessors in Heaven apart from Christ because Christ is out High Priest. To go elsewhere is to say that Jesus is insufficient and His position as High Priest is worthless.
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Saint Grogan
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04/30/2012 03:11 |
Marcie,
All that God wants us to know about Himself is revealed in Scripture. If we venture outside of what He has provided for us, we run the risk of inventing a God after our own design. This is why we are not to create “graven images” (even in our minds) because this is idolatry. Look at all the Gods that are currently out there, Marcie. Are they all the same God? Are they the God of the Bible? No, they are inventions by men. We can insult the Most High by our inventions and imitations of Him. Look at Romans 1:19-23:
“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” (Romans 1:19-23)
God is most particular about the way He is to be worshipped. If we are to venture outside that which He has provided for us, we run the risk of not only inventing our own God but we will worship (or not worship) that God in a manner of our choosing, not His.
What you heard may not have been from God if it is telling you to go beyond what He has provided for you.
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Saint Grogan
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04/30/2012 04:09 |
Because this thread is on the subject of “saints”, I’m not going to spend a lot of time talking about necromancy because it could be a thread of its own.
Just a quick thought on the subject of apparitions,
“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
Next question?
The Merriam-Webster dictionary is not a good place to get definitions for Biblical terms because they don’t always apply proper hermeneutics. Hermeneutics takes into account what a word meant at the time it was used by the author. For that, you need a good “Bible” dictionary or encyclopedia. In the Hebrew, the word that has been translated as “necromancer” is (doresh el hammethim). It is interpreted as “one who seeks from or inquires of the dead.” Although the heathen frequently consulted with the dead or familiar spirits in order to gain knowledge of future events, necromancers in that day were also sought to consult with the dead and request their influence in other matters as well.
A person doesn’t have to be a professional necromancer in order to conger up a spirit. It’s the act itself that God condemns. The Apostle Paul wrote:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places,” (Ephesians 6:12)
Satan and his minions are out there and are ready to deceive anyone of the true nature of God. However, God's Word does teach us the true character of Satan. If Satan can transform himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), he can certainly transform himself into a patron Saint, or at least deceive a person into thinking that he is. Satan is capable of doing signs and wonders himself and there is a danger in “praying” to saints because you can draw the attention of a fallen angel and open up a door for them.
The prophet Samuel would have been considered a “Saint”. It wasn’t the witch of Endor who raised the spirit of Samuel, it was God (1 Samuel 28:7-20). Saul knew it was against Gods law to enlist the aid of a medium and he even swore unto the Lord that she would be spared. The practice of the living invoking the spirits of the departed has more in common with spiritualism and necromancy. Both are condemned in Scripture.
“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-13)
“And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:26-27)
God wants all of your heart, not just “His piece” of it. Jesus said,” No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other…” (Matthew 6:24). The Bible makes no provision for lesser forms of worship. God said, “Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God” Since God is a jealous God, He will not accept your man made Gods.
“ I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)
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Marcie in MO
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04/30/2012 16:58 |
Grogan, the scripture you quoted [below] does not say God showed Himself in scripture. It says that God has been clearly seen since the beginning of the world, He is understood in His creation. You say God is particular about the way He is worshipped? How so? I have to worship Him according to a particular formula or He won't accept it? I think you are walking a slippery slope, Grogan, because it appears you are turning the Bible into an idol. The Word did not cease when John put down his pen at the end of Revelation.
Grace and peace,
Marcie
“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” (Romans 1:19-23)
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Saint Grogan
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05/01/2012 03:57 |
No Marcie,
The Bible is not an idol to me but it is the lens by which I see God, who He is, what He expects of me and it is a road map to Salvation, the gift of God. We are not to add to it or take from it. The passage in Romans was to demonstrate what happens when humans go beyond what God has revealed about Himself. I didn’t say that there was a formula for worshipping God. The Bible says that you love God with ALL your heart, soul, mind and strength because He is worthy to receive it. Can you honestly say that you have given ALL your heart to the Lord? I can’t.
And yes, the pen did stop upon the completion of the Book of Revelation.
I’m the one who says God is sovereign. You got people on this thread that say the Father has to enlist the aid of other intercessors in Heaven because Christ is insufficient as High Priest and I’m accused of putting Christ in a box?
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Lanny Carlson
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05/01/2012 07:39 |
Yes, you're putting God in a box!
You INSIST that the pen stopped after Revelation.
You insist that God HAS NOT revealed himself beyond the Scriptures.
You say, "I’m the one who says God is sovereign,"
but you seem to be saying "as long as he acts according to my understanding."
If that's not putting God in a box,
I don't know what is.
(And if he's not in a box,
ask him to teach you a little humility and charity)>
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Marcie in MO
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05/01/2012 09:27 |
The Bible is the lens by which I see God, who He is and what He expects of me. It is also my road map to Salvation, the gift of God. I do not add to the Bible or take from it. I believe everything in it is absolute Truth. I do not, however, believe that the God who created the universe and provided that Salvation would suddenly stop speaking to us... especially since He gave us the Holy Spirit to be with us always. Do you not believe that God speaks to you? If so, does He only quote scripture from the Bible when He speaks? He would limit Himself to this? No matter what reason you quoted the passage from Romans, it does not change the fact that is says God reveals Himself through everything He has created and has done so since the beginning (that means before there was Scripture).
You did say that God is particular about the way He is worshipped. What does that mean if I doesn't mean that I can worship Him incorrectly and it won't be accepted by Him?
I don't believe anyone who has posted on this thread does not believe God is sovereign. No one said He HAS to enlist the aid of anyone or anything.
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Marcie in MO
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05/01/2012 09:35 |
As an addendum, I don't even know if I believe in praying to Mary and the Saints. I honestly don't think it makes one iota of difference either way as long as you believe John 3:16. It just pains me to see you putting limits on God.
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Lanny Carlson
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05/01/2012 11:00 |
Very good comments!
You and I have disagreed on many things,
but I agree with you on this thread.
Also, when we have disagreed,
it has always been respectful.
I wish that were truew of everyone.
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