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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Marcie in MO
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05/01/2012 19:39 |
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY51q1xIFJQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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John T
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05/02/2012 18:53 |
Hey "Saint Grogan" - what's with the name?
Peace,
John
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Saint Grogan
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05/03/2012 02:32 |
Marcie wrote:
You did say that God is particular about the way He is worshipped. What does that mean if I doesn't mean that I can worship Him incorrectly and it won't be accepted by Him?
“And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them. And there came forth fire from before Jehovah, and devoured them, and they died before Jehovah. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that Jehovah spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.” (Leviticus 10:1-3)
You can’t approach God any way you want to.
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Saint Grogan
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05/03/2012 02:46 |
John,
Every believer is a “saint” before God by virtue of our position in Jesus Christ. I am merely wearing the name “loud and proud.”
“..unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours” (1 Corinthians 1:2)
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Saint Grogan
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05/03/2012 03:27 |
Marcie wrote:
“I don't even know if I believe in praying to Mary and the Saints. I honestly don't think it makes one iota of difference either way as long as you believe John 3:16. It just pains me to see you putting limits on God.”
Interesting video, by the way. King Solomon Himself said, “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?” I truly believe this. We may have a misunderstanding. Where have I put limits on God? If someone were to say, for example, the departed spirits in Heaven can hear the living here on Earth because God gives them that ability. When they are asked the question, “how do you know that?” To say, “because God can do anything” is not an answer.
“But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)
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Marcie in MO
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05/03/2012 16:44 |
Grogan wrote:
Marcie wrote:
You did say that God is particular about the way He is worshipped. What does that mean if I doesn't mean that I can worship Him incorrectly and it won't be accepted by Him?
“And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them. And there came forth fire from before Jehovah, and devoured them, and they died before Jehovah. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that Jehovah spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.” (Leviticus 10:1-3)
You can’t approach God any way you want to.
Grogan, are you sure you want to choose to live by the law and not by Grace?
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Marcie in MO
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05/03/2012 17:14 |
Grogan wrote:
Marcie wrote:
You did say that God is particular about the way He is worshipped. What does that mean if I doesn't mean that I can worship Him incorrectly and it won't be accepted by Him?
“And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them. And there came forth fire from before Jehovah, and devoured them, and they died before Jehovah. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that Jehovah spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.” (Leviticus 10:1-3)
You can’t approach God any way you want to.
Grogan, are you sure you want to choose to live by the law and not by Grace?
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Saint Grogan
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05/05/2012 03:12 |
Marcie,
I’m not living by the law. The law still points us to Christ and we use it as a guide. We continue to follow the law because it is God’s standards. We follow them not because we have to but, because we want to please God.
The law is:
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
You asked:
“What does that mean if I doesn't mean that I can worship Him incorrectly and it won't be accepted by Him?”
I used the example of Nadab and Abihu to demonstrate that you cannot approach God anyway you want. God does not change. It is because of Jesus Christ that we can approach God at all. That still doesn’t mean we can approach God any way we want to. There is still a proper respect and reverence we are to follow. That’s all I’m trying to say.
I do not know how you personally worship God and as far as I can recollect, I haven’t made a judgment on how you yourself worship. You seem to be taking this personally.
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Marcie in MO
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05/06/2012 22:23 |
Not in the least, Grogan.
Grace and peace to you.
Marcie
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Saint Grogan
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05/10/2012 22:46 |
There are a number of misconceptions surrounding the Early Church Fathers. Some people think that if you go back to the earliest of the Church Fathers, you’ll find some extra-scriptural tradition or practice that was established around the time of the Apostles. Although this might sound logical, there is very little truth in it. Some of the earliest Church Fathers were decades removed from the original Gospel accounts. Students of Church History are quick to discover that the Early Church Fathers, although they were godly men, did not always agree on everything and in fact some even taught error. For example, Irenaeus (120-202) taught that Jesus lived to be 50 years old and did not believe in the Trinity.
When the earliest Church Fathers referred to men being “deified” they meant it in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christian believers and transforms them into the image of God in Christ, eventually endowing them in the resurrection with immortality and God's perfect moral character. (for an example, see "Augustine's Conception of Deification," Journal of Theological Studies, n.s., 37 (Oct. 1986): 369-386)
Also, many of the Fathers taught that devotion was to be given to God alone.
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“Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe on Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things truly through the power of God, according to the will of the Father of all, as the prophets had foretold. But what these things were, shall be described in dealing with the proofs to be found in the prophetical writings.” (Irenaeus c. 120-c. 202: Vol. I, Against Heresies, 2:32:5.)
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“This was the advice he gave to those who came to him. And with those who suffered he sympathised and prayed. And oft-times the Lord heard him on behalf of many: yet he boasted not because he was heard, nor did he murmur if he were not. But always he gave the Lord thanks and besought the sufferer to be patient, and to know that healing belonged neither to him nor to man at all, but only to the Lord, who doeth good when and to whom He will. The sufferers therefore used to receive the words of the old man as though they were a cure, learning not to be downhearted but rather to be long-suffering. And those who were healed were taught not to give thanks to Antony but to God alone.” (Athanasius 293-373: Athanasius: Select Works and Letters, Life of Anthony, Section 56)
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“As for those spirits who are good, and who are therefore not only immortal but also blessed, and to whom they suppose we should give the title of gods, and offer worship and sacrifices for the sake of inheriting a future life, we shall, by God’s help, endeavor in the following book to show that these spirits, call them by what name, and ascribe to them what nature you will, desire that religious worship be paid to God alone, by whom they were created, and by whose communications of Himself to them they are blessed” (Augustine 354-430: City of God and Christian Doctrines, City of God, Chapter 23)
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“My heart is worn out, because a man has been snatched away, whose like we can hardly find again; but yetThou alone O Lord, art to be invoked, Thou art to be entreated, that Thou mayst supply his place with sons.” (Ambrose c. 339-97: Herbert Mortimer Luckock, After Death: An Examination of the Testimony of Primitive Times respecting the State of the Faithful Dead, and Their Relationship to the Living, 2nd Ed. (London: Rivingtons, 1880) pp. 192-193.)
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“From such a system of teaching proceeds also the ungodly practice of certain foolish folk who worship the sun as it rises at the beginning of daylight from elevated positions: even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peter’s basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform, they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?
This objectionable practice must be given up therefore by the faithful, and the honour due to God alone must not be mixed up with those men’s rites who serve their fellow-creatures. For the divine Scripture says: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve [S. Matt. iv. 10.].” (Leo the Great (400-461): Gregory the Great, Sermon 27 of Leo the Great, Sections 4-5)
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I urge everyone to use discernment when reading anything written by an Early Church Father. Their message can easily be taken out of context. You really need to examine the entire text and compare it to Scripture.
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