|
|
Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
| |
Saint Grogan
|
03/30/2012 02:59 |
Catholica wrote:
“Yes, God grants all people in heaven that gift.”
How do you know God does this?
Catholica wrote:
“In heaven time is eternal, and no amount of simultaneous prayers on Earth could cause a saint to not hear a prayer. And God has granted the saints in heaven the ability to intercede for us on earth, as we become partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4, cf. Rev 5:8).”
First, we haven’t established whether or not a saint can hear prayers. Secondly, 2 Peter 1:4 doesn’t say anything about the saints in Heaven. And finally, regarding Revelation 5:8, you have to take into consideration that the book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Who are the “saints” whose prayers are in the golden vials?
|
| |
Catholica
|
03/30/2012 09:43 |
Grogan,
Let's look at Rev. 5:8. Here is the text:
Revelation 5
6Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the [seven] spirits of God sent out into the whole world. 7He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. 8When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
The elders are clearly men (and by "men" I mean "people") who are in heaven. Since people in heaven see the face of God, and have been made perfectly just, it is unlikely that they would be interceding for each other. Thus the prayers are those of people not in heaven. The point is that it is the /elders/ - men - who are offering the prayers of others - interceding for them - to God: to Jesus, the lamb.
Note that Catholics also ask the angels to pray for us. See Revelation 8:3:
Revelation 8
3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
This is more evidence that other residents of heaven - the angels - are given the prayers of the holy ones to offer to God. The angels are also heavenly intercessors.
Turning to 2 Peter 1:4 we read:
4Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
This "share in the divine nature" is not limited to the saints in heaven, but the description "those who have escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire" /certainly/ includes the saints in heaven, by definition. And the Bible says that they "partake in the divine nature". Think about that: the freakin' DIVINE nature. That means they are somehow given powers to do things that God can do. They are not granted this of their own, but being attached in holiness, plugged in, if you will, to God. God is granting the saints who have overcome /great things/, and that certainly /gives precedent/ to the notion that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers and intercede for us. The text in Revelation 5:8, the evidence that the elders and angels ARE interceding, offering our prayers for us before the throne, seals the deal.
|
| |
Saint Grogan
|
03/31/2012 05:15 |
Catholica,
I’d like to reiterate that the book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. As with other prophetic books in the Bible, the book of Revelation poses serious and difficult interpretive challenges due to its vivid imagery and symbolism.
Catholica wrote:
“The point is that it is the /elders/ - men - who are offering the prayers of others - interceding for them - to God: to Jesus, the lamb.”
I asked you how do you know for sure that God gives everyone who ends up in Heaven the ability to hear the prayers of those on earth?
Let’s take a look at the text again:
“And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:” (Revelation 5:8)DR
It is not clear where the elders and the four beasts received the prayers of the saints nor can it be demonstrated who exactly the “saints” are. Their identity can't be precisely demonstrated here. You say that the prayers are those of people not in heaven. How do you know for sure? The prayers could be the prayers of those on Earth or those of the redeemed. They could be their own prayers or each other’s prayers. The text doesn’t exactly say. Also, There is no mention that the elders and the four beasts are doing any kind of intercession. It would seem here that the elders aren’t doing anything more than offering the prayers.
I’m sorry Andre. I think that you are reading way too much into the text. Also, I’m working extra hours these days so I’ll apologize now for any delay in responding.
|
| |
Saint Grogan
|
03/31/2012 13:33 |
Catholica wrote:
“This is more evidence that other residents of heaven - the angels - are given the prayers of the holy ones to offer to God. The angels are also heavenly intercessors”.
I would disagree that angels intercede for us. I guess I need a definition on how Rome defines “intercession”. God is omnipresent. He knows our hearts and thoughts. We have direct access to the Father through Jesus Christ so why go through yet another “intercessor”? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
There is an interpretation that says the angel in Revelation 8:3 is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mediating “the prayers of all the saints” upon the golden alter. This “angel” is entirely separate from the seven angels in verse 2 and Jesus has been referred to simply as an “angel” in the visions of Daniel and Zechariah. This “angel” is the last and the one that offers the incense and the prayers before God. Christ is the one who mediates the “prayers of all saints”. In verse 5, the angel casts the fire of the alter into the Earth signifying bringing judgment upon it.
|
| |
Saint Grogan
|
04/01/2012 12:08 |
Catholica wrote:
“And the Bible says that they "partake in the divine nature". Think about that: the freakin' DIVINE nature. That means they are somehow given powers to do things that God can do.”
Watch your language…(LOL).
Who did St Peter write his epistle to? It wasn’t to departed spirits
“…to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”.
Look at Verse 3:
“As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue.”
This verse limits the subject to those things given us for our Godly living. Therefore, I don’t see verse 4 saying that God is going to give the saints supernatural powers like hearing prayer.
“By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.” (2 Peter 1:4)DR
I see the “divine nature” referring to those qualities of Christian life that they attain through the new birth. It’s that power that enables the Christian to become more “Christ like” in the sense that they now share in His victory over sin in their lives. St. Paul referred to it as the “power of the resurrection” (Philippians. 3:10). In verse 5, St. Peter says to supplement one’s faith. Is there faith in Heaven when it has been told to us that all will be revealed?
|
| |
John T
|
04/01/2012 20:46 |
Thanks Catholica, that makes sense and helps a lot. Thanks for the response!
John
|
| |
Craig from Illinois
|
04/02/2012 07:45 |
Why would Saints hearing prayers be considered "supernatural" while existing in Heaven, Grogan? Isn't being a saved soul in Heaven considered supernatural to this world? But being in Heaven, dwelling with God, and perhaps listening to our earthly prayers be considered quite natural in Heaven.
It seems that trying to use the Bible to understand the entire scope of what is actually happening in the Heavenly Kingdom is futile. It's also a joy kill because of it's incompleteness.
I pray through the Holy Spirit(God's Spirit). It's the only thing that really makes sense to me. But I'm also not limiting the Heavenly souls' perfection to include the ability to hear me and perhaps appeal to God in some way. They are abiding with God anyway, why not have a conversation regarding His creation? Limiting this ability by incomplete scripture is depressing!
Grogan & Andre, I'm not content that the Bible has the final and complete authority on this topic. It's obvious that it's not covered by scripture with clarity and finality. When you both talk to the Holy Spirit, what does He say about this? When I pray and Selah about this, I am disturbed in my soul about what Grogan has concluded via scripture. I'm going to conclude for now that this uneasy sense is the Holy Spirit saying "don't limit me and my Kingdom".
|
| |
Catholica
|
04/02/2012 12:50 |
Grogan, thanks for your responses. Without getting too in depth, I'd make the following points:
Fir you asked about the Catholic Definition of intercessory prayer. Here is a good explanation, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
----
III. PRAYER OF INTERCESSION
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (Cf. Rom 8:34; 1 Jn 2:1; 1 Tim 2:5-8) He is "able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." (Heb 7:25) The Holy Spirit "himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:26-27)
2635 Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another - has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God's mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ's, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks "not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others," even to the point of praying for those who do him harm. (Phil 2:4; cf. Acts 7:60; Lk 23:28,34)
2636 The first Christian communities lived this form of fellowship intensely. (Cf. Acts 12:5; 20:36; 21:5; 2 Cor 9:14) Thus the Apostle Paul gives them a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel (Cf. Eph 6:18-20; Col 4:3-4; 1 Thess 5:25) but also intercedes for them. (Cf. 2 Thess 1:11; Col 1:3; Phil 1:3-4) The intercession of Christians recognizes no boundaries: "for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions," for persecutors, for the salvation of those who reject the Gospel. (2 Tim 2:1; cf. Rom 12:14; 10:1)
----
The main text concerning intercession for each of us to each other is 1 Tim. 2:1-4.
Other points:
* It is highly unlikely that the angel referred to as "another angel" in Revelation 8:3 is Jesus himself. Rev. 8:2 refers to seven angels explicitly distinct from the Lamb who just got done opening the seventh seal in Rev. 8:1. Forcing Rev. 8:3's "another angel" to be Jesus is reading a particular belief system into the text. An honest simple reading of this text would not lead anyone to believe that that angel is Jesus.
* It doesn't say whose prayers the elders are holding in Rev. 5:8, just that they are the "prayers of the holy ones". That is, human prayers. They are being offered to Jesus by the human elders. That is intercession. You read into the text too much to say that those prayers are only from those in heaven. It says no such thing. And as you like to say, "why would we need to go to intercessors?" Well, an even better question is, why would those /in heaven/ need to go to intercessors? It is more likely that the prayers are from those who are not in heaven yet. Similarly in Rev. 8:3, why would the prayers of people in heaven be given to an angel to offer to God?
* 1 Peter is being written to people not yet in heaven, yet Peter is writing of spiritual realities, one of which is granted to us when we "escape the corruption that is in the world", which is something we obviously do when we get to heaven. The saints in heaven are real people too, real Christians, not simply "disembodied spirits". v.5 speaks of how people on Earth can escape the corruption in this world right now, by growing in virtue. The saints in heaven are already made perfect in these virtues, and have no need of faith. The reality is that whence a person becomes more perfect in virtue, he/she is granted a gift to take part in the divine nature. "Taking part in the divine nature" is precedent for the concept that people can take part in the life of the divine. It is not proof that saints in heaven can hear prayers; it simply lends credence to the notion that it is possible. Taking all of scripture into account, it seems that those in heaven can intercede and are interceding for us, offering prayers of those who are not yet in heaven.
There are many since the reformation who have rejecting the intercession of the saints in heaven. A simple point is this: there is one vine for all the saints, whether they are in heaven or not. We are all in a certain communion with each other. That is what the early Church meant by "the communion of saints" when they wrote the creed. Being completely cut off from saints on Earth is not communion for those in heaven, nor is being completely cut off from saints in Heaven communion for those on Earth. We are one body, one vine, not two. They are our cloud of witnesses, and I and many Catholic Christians, Orthodox Christians, and Anglican Christians still believe what the early Church believed, and that is that we can ask the saints in heaven for their intercession and God grants them knowledge of those prayers, and in charity they gladly give of themselves for the body of Christ.
Scripture does not demonstrate that the intercession of the saints in heaven is impossible, and also seems to directly indicate that it is happening. That, with the time immemorial teaching of the Catholic Church that they are interceding, is enough for me to believe it through faith.
"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).
|
| |
Saint Grogan
|
04/02/2012 14:48 |
Craig,
God gave you everything that He wants you to know about himself, about Salvation and what He expects from you thru Scripture. It is a standard, a rule and the authority for the church so in that sense, Scripture is sufficient. The ability to understand Scripture is also under God’s control. It’s not up to you and me to “fill in the blanks”. God tells us not to add to or take away from His inspired word. To go beyond it is to exceed what God has intended for your life and that of the curch.
If you have a spirit telling you "don't limit me and my Kingdom" then perhaps it’s a spirit that is not from God, Craig.
|
| |
Catholica
|
04/02/2012 15:22 |
Grogan, scripture is clear in the fact that we are to hold also to the oral teachings of the apostles. It never says that it is "sufficient", nor does it self-define exactly which books comprise scripture. All you are doing is pronouncing a precept of Protestantism that itself is not supported by scripture.
Craig is right, God is not limited. He has not revealed everything through scripture, but rather to the apostles who recorded much but not all of it in scripture. Such concludes the gospel of John.
|
(page
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14)
|
