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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Saint Grogan
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04/02/2012 15:26 |
Thank you for clarifying what intercession is as defined by Rome. There still insufficient reason to believe that the saints in Heaven either hear our prayers or do more than hand our prayers over to Christ. To read any more into the vision is to, as you say, read into it a particular belief system. As I keep saying, the book of Revelation is highly symbolic. Not everything is as it appears or in real time.
I’m not going to get into a discussion about oral or “Sacred” tradition on this thread with you. I’ll just say I disagree with you about the subject.
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Catholica
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04/02/2012 15:57 |
What exactly does it mean to "hand our prayers over to Christ"? Is a prayer a physical object? The symbolism is obvious here: the elders cannot "hand" a prayer over because prayers aren't tangible, physical things. The "handing over" that you read symbolizes intercession - a communicating of prayers through the elders to the Lamb.
What is your interpretation of "handing the prayers" over? Is it that the prayers are physical objects in heaven? What explanation is more reasonable than the "handing over" being symbolic of intercessory prayer? Or are you saying, "I don't know what it means, but I know that that's not what it means"?
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Lanny Carlson
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04/02/2012 16:41 |
Grogan,
you said,
"God tells us not to add to or take away from His inspired word"
I am assuming you are basing that statement on Revelation 22:18-19,
which isn't referring to the whole of Scripture
but to the book of Revelation,
which incidentally almost wasn't included in the canon,
and which Luther didn't include in his canon.
I agree with Andre - in part -
when he says,
"Craig is right, God is not limited. He has not revealed everything through scripture, but rather to the apostles who recorded much but not all of it in scripture."
If God is not limited, why limit God to the apostles?
Is God now muzzled so that God can no longer speak or reveal divine truth?
That's the problem with a closed canon, which was only closed in the 4th century,
in part as a political move to exclude books with which the majority didn't agree.
(Is that really any different than Protestants excluding the Apocryphal books?)
I realize these comments are off the topic of saints,
about which I have no real opinion,
but addresses the topic into which this thread seems to have morphed.
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Saint Grogan
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04/03/2012 03:19 |
Andre,
I don’t know what it’s going to take to convince you that the vision of John and the book of Revelation are symbolic. “Handing over prayers” was only symbolic just as golden vials full of the prayers was symbolic. It made prayers tangible, did it not.
God doesn’t need saints to intercede for us. Christ is fully capable of hearing and administering to our petitions. Remember, the veil was rent from top to bottom to show that all of us could approach the throne of grace by ourselves. Why go through a saint when God welcomes our prayers? Is a saint going to put in a good word for you?
And what of Deuteronomy 18:11? God told the Israelites that those who invoked the aid of familiar spirits were an abomination to the Lord. I’d say asking the departed to pray for us falls within that.
I’d like to have a reasonable discussion regarding saints Andre, but If you’re just going confuse the issue, then this is where I get off.
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Saint Grogan
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04/03/2012 03:25 |
Lanny:
Deuteronomy 4:2 says, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.”
If this applies to Moses then it applies to the whole council of God’s word.
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Catholica
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04/03/2012 06:33 |
Grogan, I agree that the book of Revelation is symbolic. I am interpreting it's symbolism. You have offered no interpretation of this verse. If something is symbolic, do we just throw up our hands and say we can't understand it? No, otherwise the Book of Revelation is useless to us. Why even have it in the Bible?
This interpretation I am offering is not my own, but rather that of a 2000 year old Church, a Church that many reasonably believe was founded by Jesus Christ himself to proclaim the Truth of the Gospel to the whole world.
You are right, God has no need for anyone to intercede for us. I agree! Yet God likes for us to do so, it makes him pleased. 1 Tim. 2:1-4. Why ask other people to pray for us at all, if we can go straight to the father? We as Christians practice this and know its a good thing. We ask people to pray for us all the time. When someone asks you to prayer for them do you simply tell them to go to Jesus themself?
Deuteronomy 18:11 is in context of conjuring up the dead in an effort to gain secret information from them. That is not what Christians do when we ask the saints in heaven for their prayers.
Deuteronomy 18
10 Let there not be found among you anyone who causes their son or daughter to pass through the fire, or practices divination, or is a soothsayer, augur, or sorcerer, 11or who casts spells, consults ghosts and spirits, or seeks oracles from the dead. 12Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, and because of such abominations the LORD, your God, is dispossessing them before you. 13You must be altogether sincere with the LORD, your God. 14Although these nations whom you are about to dispossess listen to their soothsayers and diviners, the LORD, your God, will not permit you to do so.
Perhaps its time to stop consulting anti-Catholic sites and actually just come and reason here with me.
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Craig from Illinois
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04/03/2012 07:18 |
Grogan, as strange as this sounds as I write it God doesn't "need" Christ to intercede either. One of the characteristics of God is that He is GOD, He knows, knew and will know! I believe Christ does intercede. It's a privilege to have Jesus our brother intercede on our behalf. That's not a demotion of Christ's power and authority. But it demonstrates the relationship that God desires man to have with God.
For example, a year ago I would have stuck to the hard line Biblical principal that we should pray in Jesus name in order to have the prayer be heard. I have no problem with praying in the authority of Jesus. But I am having problems with prayer being a formula. What I mean is that if I forget to say "In Jesus name, Amen." Then my conscious warns me that I may have just nullified my prayer because I didn't use the right password, J-E-S-U-S. I really did hear that in my head when I forget. (I know, I'm messed up)
Now, I am much more aware that a conversation with our Father does not include dialing up the right number or hanging up the phone correctly. The Holy Spirit hears and groans for the spoken and unspoken prayers because of the authority of Jesus. It's all part of the package. If I want to commune with the Saints through conversation, I don't see a problem with that Biblically or logically. As Andre points out, we are all part of the same vine and one body. This is beautiful and joyful! Death doesn't separate us from the vine! Not from my perspective regarding those who have passed and not from their perspective regarding us left behind. Beautiful. How does it work? I have no idea! I wish scripture would elaborate a little more on this topic.
I have no idea if Saints hear our prayers, intercede or if any of that is even necessary. But Andre's discussion about the "communion of the saints" sure makes sense in the wider scope of God's love and relationship for ALL his children that is told in the Bible.
I love the content of the Bible, the revelation of Jesus the Savior, the story of relationship with God our creator, etc. But Grogan, when I hear your proof-texts of how things work in the Heavenly realm, it just turns my stomach. I see this huge open sky of God's Glory that awaits but their is a big black Bible shaped cloud that is blocking your view.
Just to stray off the topic for a moment. I am a believer, follower and brother of Jesus. That puts God's Spirit in communion with my soul. When my heart pounds and my soul jumps with joy and love for God, I know it's the Holy Spirit revealing me soul to more of God and His Glory. Sometimes when I read or listen to the Bible, I get that. Sometimes it happens in my quiet time with Him. Sometimes it comes from reading the debates on these forums. One thing I am quite certain is that a foul spirit is not causing my soul to love God more.
Grogan, do the limitations of the Bible on certain topics end your quest for more of God? Or do you commune with God's Spirit to go beyond the Biblical texts? I bet you do that latter as do I. I think fundamentally, we are at a division between the final authority of the Bible and the final authority of God's word. They are not the same. God's Word is written and being written on my heart. I believe that is comprised as a combination of scripture familiarization and God's revelation through the Spirit.
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Saint Grogan
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04/04/2012 03:01 |
Forgive me if my responses come in fragments due to time restraints.
"And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped," (Rev. 5:8-14)
First of all Andre, I’m not consulting any anti-catholic sites for my interpretation but relying on what the Spirit gives me. If you want to paint me in a bad light, that’s fine, whatever.
What is there to interpret in Revelation 5:8? It is a vision with metaphors and symbols. Not everything in the visions of Daniel or Zechariah represented itself in what it appeared to be. The vision does not provide where the saints got the prayers. The verses do not say who the saints are. The vision does not say that the saints prayed to the elders, beasts or angels. It does not say that they heard the prayers themselves from Heaven. The vision only says that the Elders and the four beasts had the vails full of odours. So, how do these verses prove that everyone who ends up in Heaven can hear prayers? How does these verses authorize the saints on Earth to pray to the departed in Heaven? I do not see any intercession on the part of the four elders nor the four beasts. I don’t see the elders or the four beasts doing anything with the vails.
You say you are interpreting their symbolism. You say that this teaching has been in the church for 2000 years. I say prove it.
There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven.
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Saint Grogan
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04/04/2012 03:23 |
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (matthew 6:21)
Craig,
The Bible provides me all that I need in my quest for God. Each time I read through the Bible, I learn something new. I don’t understand what it is that you find as a constraint, Craig. God warns us not to go beyond what he has provided or asked us to, not to limit us but for our protection. I commune with God’s Spirit to better understand what He expects of me. I serve God. He does not serve me.
“…for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” (matthew 6:32-33)
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Saint Grogan
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04/04/2012 03:55 |
Catholica wrote:
“You are right, God has no need for anyone to intercede for us. I agree! Yet God likes for us to do so, it makes him pleased. 1 Tim. 2:1-4. Why ask other people to pray for us at all, if we can go straight to the father? We as Christians practice this and know its a good thing. We ask people to pray for us all the time. When someone asks you to prayer for them do you simply tell them to go to Jesus themself?”
I pray for you Andre but 1 Timothy 2:1-4 says nothing about people asking the departed for prayer does it?
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;" (1 Timothy 2:1)
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