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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Catholica
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04/05/2012 16:15 |
In the Gospel of John, we find the following key passage:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.(John 16:13)
It is through this Truth our Lord gives us that Jesus did not reveal complete understanding of all of those things that divine revelation to the apostles would imply. The promise of the Lord is that He would send the Holy Spirit to /guide the church into _all_ truth/. It is through this passage, among others, that we understand that the Church that Jesus founded would never be led into apostasy in its official teachings.
Therefore it is not scandalous that a deeper understanding of all the implications of the communion of saints, who are our cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1), the perfectly just in heaven whose prayers are more powerful than any others save our Lord's (James 5:16), to whom we are connected in the body of Christ mystically on the one vine (John 15:5) would be able and willing to receive the prayers of the holy ones on earth and intercede for us to God (Rev. 5:8).
The following is an excerpt from an article on the issue of "later accretion". You may /suspect/ it was, but (to the best of my understanding) I /affirm/ that it was, and to that I say, that's not a problem! The Holy Spirit /guides/ the Church that Jesus founded into all truth. That means that not all truth was readily apparent to the Church while Jesus still walked with us.
Link to the article: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0610fea3.asp
The Fathers Know Best
I shall finally respond here to the objection that Catholic practice regarding saints is a later accretion to authentic Christianity, a distortion of what the early Church believed. We should bear in mind that the Church does not wish to discard its ancient beliefs, nor does it desire to cling only to the practices of the early Christians. To reject the teachings of the Fathers would be to reject the orthodox foundations of the faith, and to maintain only the practices of the early Church would be to deny its organic growth. We might remember, for example, that the Nicene Creed was not formulated until the fourth century. While on the one hand we see St. John of Damascus warning that it is not "a thing of no matter to give up the ancient tradition of the Church held by our forefathers, whose conduct we should observe, and whose faith we should imitate," we also see Pope Pius XII in his beautiful encyclical Mediator Dei reprimanding those "who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately" (MD 61). Catholic belief holds that the foundation of the early Fathers is the seminary from which the Church grows, maturing through time. For Catholics, there is no rupture in Church teaching and tradition from the death of Christ to today, and this includes prayer to saints.
Beside the scriptural precedents for praying to the saints in heaven, several early Church Fathers wrote of the need to seek their intercession. The third-century bishop and martyr St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote:
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of life and death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy. (Letters 56[60]:5)
And St. Clement of Alexandria, also from the third century, said:
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]. (Miscellanies 7:12)
Besides Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria, other early Fathers noted the importance of praying to the saints—Augustine of Hippo, Origen, Methodius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Hilary of Poitiers, and so forth. It is simply unhistorical to claim that prayer to the saints is a later Catholic invention; historical evidence suggests that it was not until the Reformation that this practice was abandoned by Protestants.
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Catholica
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04/05/2012 19:21 |
Hi Craig,
Although extremely rare, there have been times when saints have unexpectedly become present. Yet this is still not divination or necromancy, because there was no intent to conjure up the saints in order to talk to them, and no act to try to foresee future events. The purpose of praying through the saints is simply asking for their intercession.
When a heavenly being becomes present to human senses, its called an apparition. For example there are many cases where God has become present, like the burning bush. Apparitions of angels occurred many times in the Bible. Similarly apparitions of saints have happened since the resurrection. The Church is extremely cautious about these apparitions, however, because it is also possible for these to be demons. Any person who sees an apparition needs to have a spiritual advisor to help them discern whether an apparition is a heavenly being or a demon.
In any case, I'm sure that will be hard for some people to swallow, but that is why we have the Church and a knowledge of the Truth. This is another reason why the Truth is so important, because these apparitions could happen to any Christian, or even little pagan kids.
It still is not necromancy because the Christian is taking a passive role when the apparition happens, not an active role in trying to summon someone. With God anything is possible. It is when we grasp for that which we should not know that we repeat the original sin, which is why divination and necromancy are so soundly denounced in scripture.
Good question, Craig.
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Craig from Illinois
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04/05/2012 21:00 |
I'm going to contemplate deeply on the ideas expressed in this thread. If you remember, I come from an Anabaptist tradition, Mennonite to be specific. So I am well versed in how "weird" some Catholic beliefs can be. LOL...
I have to be honest. I am biased to the core not to trust some doctrines of the Catholic Church, like praying to the Saints. I even mentioned the content of this thread last night at a Bible study. I presented the argument as a "well maybe" and hit major resistance. So I doubt my personal influences outside of the DAB family will help widen my perspective.
So I am thankful for this community to freely discuss, debate and ask questions. I am stretched beyond my comfort zone many times. But Andre, you are a gift; a kind hearted and gentle gift. Thank you.
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Saint Grogan
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04/06/2012 03:03 |
Catholica wrote:
Do you believe that Jesus takes away the privilege to pray for others once we enter heaven? Why would He do that? What makes you believe such a thing?
What makes me believe that when we enter Heaven, we don’t grow six pairs of arms? Because the Bible doesn’t say that we do. We have nothing that tells us that we either do or don’t. The Bible doesn’t say that we can pray to someone who may be in Heaven to pray for us.
Where do you get the idea that we can pray to the dead?
Catholica wrote:
"It is He and He alone who goes before the Father" is that you are saying that Jesus must actively take each prayer and deliver it, like a relay, to the Father. Is this correct?
You make prayer sound like a tangible thing, Andre (LOL)
I was speaking metaphorically. In the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, it was the High Priest and he alone who entered the Holy of Holies and applied the blood. So, in the same sense that we call Christ our “High Priest”, I believe He still very active on our behalf in heaven including prayer.
“And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Effective prayer is “in His name”. (John 14:13-14)
“Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25)
“And this is the confidence that we have in him, (Christ) that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.” (1 John 5:14-15)
We are in Christ, and so our connection to Christ is more organic than that, such that we can call out to the Father without having to worry about using the right formula.
You would know better than I about “using the right formula”. And yes, you can call out to the Father without going through yet, another intercessor besides Jesus.
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Saint Grogan
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04/06/2012 03:07 |
EDIT BUTTON...
Correcrtion:
Catholica wrote:
We are in Christ, and so our connection to Christ is more organic than that, such that we can call out to the Father without having to worry about using the right formula.
You would know better than I about “using the right formula”. And yes, you can call out to the Father without going through yet, another intercessor besides Jesus.
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Saint Grogan
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04/06/2012 04:33 |
Catholica wrote:
“Making a prayer to a saint is no different than making a prayer to Jesus, except that you ask the saint to pray for you instead”.
What an insult to the one who lives to make intercession for you. To make Him no better than His creation.? Jesus has the authority to answer your prayers. Saints do not.
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Catholica
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04/06/2012 05:29 |
Grogan in response to your post, 04/06/2012, where you wrote:
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Catholica wrote:
“Making a prayer to a saint is no different than making a prayer to Jesus, except that you ask the saint to pray for you instead”.
What an insult to the one who lives to make intercession for you. To make Him no better than His creation.? Jesus has the authority to answer your prayers. Saints do not.
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You tore this completely out of context. Here is what I wrote initially:
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Referring back to this comment on Deuteronomy 18:11, it almost goes without saying that the "arts" that are referred to are similar to black magic and spirit conjuring. There is no "art" to praying. Making a prayer to a saint is no different than making a prayer to Jesus, except that you ask the saint to pray for you instead. No arts involved.
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By "no different", in context it is clear that I meant that /the way/ the prayers are said are no different. That is, they are normal prayers. They don't involve conjuring, summoning demons, using tarot cards, drawing circles on the floor.
Please refrain from tearing things out of context.
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Craig from Illinois
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04/06/2012 07:38 |
Grogan, you asked "Where do you get the idea that we can pray to the dead?" to Andre.
Doesn't this get to the root of the question for the Believer, what happens when we die? Are we alive in Christ? Are our souls with the Father? Are we asleep?
I don't believe we can pray to the "dead". But it doesn't make any sense that the bodily dead who are alive in Christ in Heaven would not be able to hear our prayers. And if they can hear our prayers, why wouldn't they intercede in some way since they are already with the Father. And if they are with the Father, why wouldn't the Father take part in the fellowship between the "alive in Christ" in Heaven and the "alive in Christ" on Earth?
Grogan, so the Bible doesn't specifically say how the fellowship works between ALL the participants in Glory. But that's enough evidence for you that fellowship doesn't happen at all.
How about this one... if God is not bound by time (Alpha and Omega), then isn't it conceivable that God has already welcomed us Believers into the Heaven and we (Saints) are with Him now communing with ALL the Saints, (past present and future by our perspective)? Since you and I are bound by time, we have to wait. Talk about a constraint on our abilities to see clearly the things of God!
These are the things I ask and the Bible comes up short on direct answers. However, there is enough room in the Bible to say "well maybe".
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Saint Grogan
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04/06/2012 19:11 |
I’m sorry about taking your comment out of context, Andre. But, regardless of the manner in which we pray, lets’ say your wife wanted something from you. Instead of coming to you and asking you, she decided to ask Craig from Illinois to ask you instead. How would that make you feel?
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Lanny Carlson
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04/06/2012 19:44 |
Grogan,
This thread has become so LONG and argumentative
that I can't find exactly where you said it..
but I THINK you said God likes for us to pray for one another. Now you seem to be suggesting, by this analogy,
that it would be "upsetting" to God if we asked someone else to ask on our behalf.
I'm really confused about what in the world it is you're trying to say!!!
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