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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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04/06/2012 20:44 |
Lanny, I think I agree with you for once. This thread has become quite argumentative and annoying, and I may continue to read it casually, but I'm unsubscribing from the updates. It's no longer profitable reading :-)
Love you guys,
Be blessed, bless each other.
John
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Saint Grogan
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04/07/2012 02:02 |
Lanny,
We are encouraged to pray FOR one another not TO one another. There is no provision in the Bible that says we can or should ask those that have gone on to pray for us. The point I am trying to make in my analogy is we can go directly to God with our prayers based on the merits of Jesus Christ. We don’t need to go through the departed. Andre’s wife doesn’t need to ask Craig from Illinois to ask Andre for something she needs from him. She can just go to him directly.
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Saint Grogan
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04/07/2012 02:10 |
John T
You are right. Nothing is being accomplished here. I’ll compose some final remarks on the subject and I’ll close.
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Craig from Illinois
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04/07/2012 07:05 |
You're wrong to conclude that nothing has been accomplished. This has been a productive conversation. For one, I've learned to be a good listener to Catholic viewpoints and doctrine even though I have a bent towards being attitude that Protestants are always right in comparison. I've learned that the text from Deuteronomy, that has been used to debunk the practice of praying to Saints, is potentially out of context and not relevant to the argument. I've also learned more about Church history, our Church fathers, and the preservation of Early Church doctrine through the Catholic Church.
This topic has been especially important to me. I'm going to explore this practice further to see where it leads. But it's also been revealed that many Believers and non-Believers have significant confusion about what happens after death. That confusion expresses itself when we ask questions like, "can the Saints hear our prayers?" or "can my dead Grandma see what I am doing right now?" There has to be another thread started on the subject of what happens when we die.
Again Andre, thanks for your graceful defense of your beliefs. I found it to be compelling, convincing and respectful. And Grogan, I've been too critical of you and your methods in this thread and I know I've caused this thread to be contentious. I am sorry and I ask you to forgive me.
I look forward to more conversation with you both.
Craig
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Saint Grogan
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04/09/2012 04:09 |
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
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Craig from Illinois
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04/09/2012 07:28 |
Really Grogan? I'm in a serious pursuit of knowledge and truth on the topic of prayer. This is what you offer as your final remark? Do you realize how condescending it is to throw that scripture at Andre and Catholics in general?
I know you think this is an appropriate scripture text to make your point. But this is exactly the kind of response that makes my eyes roll up into my head and walk the other way.
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Lanny Carlson
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04/09/2012 13:24 |
Maybe Grogan was directing it to himself!
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Catholica
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04/10/2012 09:58 |
Thanks for the conversation, everyone. I hate it too when things devolve. It almost seems inevitable in this day and age that when we have discussions where the parties involved feel passionate about their beliefs, that they eventually become unproductive and worse, uncharitable.
I guess it is only just should I provide my own final remarks, at least so a person wouldn't necessarily have to read through all 8 pages to find the same thing. I'll try to be concise and briefly revisit each question here.
Though all who are members in the body of Christ can rightly be called saints, from the Latin "Sancto" meaning "holy" or "set apart", there are a few whom have gone before that the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church as well) have assigned to the "canon" of saints. While not explicitly reflecting a "special status in heaven" if such a thing exists, the Catholic Church has placed these heroes of the faith before us as examples of how we can also live our faith. Their earthly lives were as varied as all human life, and yet through Jesus we believe that they have entered eternal beatitude and the beatific vision.
The process of canonization is not a process of divine judgment. That is, the Catholic Church is not being the judge of these people, as the judge is Christ alone. If a saint has been canonized, we know they are in heaven, and they were judged worthy of heaven by God, not by man. This process looks at their lives, their heroic faith, their proclaiming the truth and how they died. The process of determination also takes advantage of miracles that occur through a saint's intercession (which I will go into shortly). These miracles are often one or two among hundreds attributed to a saint's intercession. They are presented to atheist experts who in turn confirm the miracle's supernatural origin. We believe that miracles still happen today, and actually often so.
Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox) also believe that the saints in heaven are fully alive and still in charity and through their intimate communion with the body of Christ offer their prayers for us and intercede for us before the throne of God. Evidence for this is found in scripture (Rev. 5:8) as well as in those writings of the early church that are still in existence. Those writings affirm a continual belief about this communion of saints, that the saints in heaven are witnesses to our struggles (Heb 12:1) and are part of the one vine (John 15) made perfect and in heaven (Hebrews 12:22) and whose prayers are very powerful (James 5:16). We believe through faith that our communion with all Christians is so strong that in perfect charity the saints in heaven are granted knowledge of the prayers of human hearts /by God Himself/, and that this in part is part of their "partaking of the divine nature" that they have been granted having "escaped the corruption that is in the world" perfectly. (cf 2 Peter 1:4). In the eternal time structure that exists in heaven, should even two, a hundred or a thousand on earth ask for a saint's intercession at the same time on Earth, a resident of heaven could hear them all as if they were one after another; that is simply how eternity works.
Far from being a search for things that we should not know (such as the sins of divination and necromancy) the request for the intercession of our brethren in heaven who have won the race is not unlike our requests to those who still run the race on earth, which is itself pleasing to God (1 Tim. 2:3), as Jesus wishes for us to intercede for each other. Our prayers are the highest form of divine charity, that is, love for one's neighbor, and of the three spiritual virtues, faith, hope and charity, the greatest of these is charity, and of the three, only charity remains in heaven, as there is no longer need for faith and hope. We believe that the saints in heaven are perfect in charity and thus live to serve and love other people as Christ served and loved His Holy Church, and that God still listens to their intercessory prayers for those who need them (those not in heaven) and can profit from them (those not in hell).
Finally, such intercession by the saints in heaven in no way detracts from Christ's intercession for us, nor more than do our requests to others who are here on earth to intercede for us detract from Christ's unique intercessory role. Rather than undermining anything, they speak to the profound connection that we all have with one another in Christ Jesus.
God Bless everyone.
Andre
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Craig from Illinois
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04/11/2012 07:23 |
Thanks for the recap, Andre. It's going in my "important things" file.
I noticed that you prayed for Marcie in PA regarding to her grandmother's cancer. You also prayed to St. Peregrin. Would you be willing to share with us a little bit about this Saint and why you chose this Saint as an intercessor?
Thanks,
Craig
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Catholica
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04/11/2012 09:57 |
Sure. St. Peregrine is the "patron saint" of people suffering with cancer. The Catholic Church has assigned him that patronage because he experienced a miraculous healing of cancer in his life.
Here is his story:
In the thirteenth century, the citizensof certain towns in Italy were opposed to accepting the spiritual and civil rights of the Holy See. Among these was the small town of Forli, located on the Adriatic Sea. In the year 1265, there was born Peregrine Laziosi, the youngest member of a rich and civilly potent family, the members of which were in the midst of the political and spiritual rebellion against the Pope or Papacy. At the early age of 18 years, Peregrine was an active participant and leader of the antipapal forces in Forli.
An open rebellion ultimately occurred in the city of Forli. Pope Martin IV enlisted the assistance of King John of Naples to overcome this antagonism. The Pontiff placed Forli under interdiction but even excommunication did not influence the attitudes and behavior of the citizens. Philip Benizi, who subsequently achieved sainthood, had been frequently mentioned as a possible future pope; he was elected to go to Forli and appeal to the people through his persuasive oratory and profound sanctity. As the official Papal Ambassador, he was ill-received, and subjected to abuse and beatings with clubs and rocks. Peregrine, a young and impetuous leader, actually struck Philip in the face, knocking him own. The saintly Ambassador immediately forgave the youth and uttered a prayer for him. Although the citizens of Forli cheered Peregrine for his violence, he personally was overcome by the meekness and tolerance of Philip, so that in his penitence, he ran three miles to encounter him again and at this meeting confessed his guilt, cried, and begged forgiveness. Philip encouraged him to rededicate himself, which he did by spending long hours in prayer in the Chapel of Our Lady in the cathedral. In the course of his meditation there, he experienced a divine calling, urging him to go to Siena. On arriving there, he was received into the Order of the Servants of Mary by the same Philip Benizi, five times General of the Order. The Order of the Servants of Mary (Servites) was founded in 1233 by seven saints, to propagate devotion to the Sorrows of Mary.
Peregrine underwent complete reformation, avoided all political entanglements, and dedicated his life to labors among the poor, the sick, and the sinful. He accepted a commission to re-establish the Servite Monastery in his home town of Forli. His tender care of the sick during a calamitous plague in Forli in 1323 secured for him the everlasting gratitude and respect of the citizens. It is said that for 30 years he never sat down, and when he was forced to sleep, he did so by leaning against a wall. Peregrine spent 62 years of his life in this religious order. In the course of this period, a huge ulcerative growth appeared on Peregrine's leg, exposing the bone and emanating the odor of gangrene. He was examined by the best physicians of his time, who unanimously pronounced the lesion to be cancerous and advised amputation of the leg. The night before the scheduled operation, Peregrine dragged himself to the small chapel of the hospital and spent the night praying before the crucifix. He then fell asleep and dreamed that Christ had reached out from the cross and touched his diseased leg. On awakening, it was found that his leg had healed completely, with no trace of the cancer. This miracle might have been the first spontaneous cure of cancer. He continued his work among the sick until he died on May 1, 1345, his 80th birthday.
Peregrine was beatified in 1609. Pope Benedict XIII solemnly canonized him in 1726. In the years 1608, 1697, and 1715, when his remains were exhumed for inspection, the body was found intact. In 1926, the second centenary of the canonization of St. Peregrine, the Bishop of Forli again examined the body and found it to be nearly perfect. St. Peregrine has been declared the universal patron of Spain, and in Vienna is cherished as the most popular saint. He is commonly invoked for the cure, survival and alleviation of cancer patients, for which he is best known in Austria, Hungary, Bavaria and Italy.
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