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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Catholica
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05/16/2012 12:16 |
While it is true that Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light, it doesn't mean that every apparition is Satanic. If one looks simply at the totality of messages stated by such apparitions, and by foreknowledge of the truths of Christ, one can then discern a false apparition just as one discerns a false teacher or apostle, which is the context of 2 Corinthians 11.
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2 Corinthians 11
Paul and False Apostles
5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested[b] among you in all things.
7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
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In the end, the false ministers could be determined by their end. The end of the apparitions in Kibeho are a) a fulfilled prophecy, b) Joy in the Lord, c) profound forgiveness between persons who one had their entire family brutally mutilated by another. We can also tell from the message the apparitions send, which includes a) repentance and an admonishment away from using people b) an increase in faith in God and prayer and c) an admonishment to reject Satan.
Personally I believe that such a message would not be delivered by Satan and I trust the Church's approval of these particular messages to be worthy of personal acceptance as private revelation.
Whereas the Church has always taught as dogma that public revelation (which is binding on all believers) ended with the death of the last apostle (John), private revelation can also be heeded as God is active in the lives of believers. Claimed apparitions are happening all the time in the world, but few ever are approved by the Church of worthy of belief, and Our Lady of Kibeho, with its obvious fruit through fulfilled prophecy and its adherence to the gospel of Christ is one.
BTW the dogma that the Catholic Church teaches which states that public revelation definitively ended with the last apostle is completely unbiblical.
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Saint Grogan
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05/18/2012 02:45 |
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
(Matthew 24:24)
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Craig from Illinois
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05/19/2012 15:14 |
Sir Grogan, I am quite frustrated with your argumentative tone in these discussions. But to play your game, what do you think of John 10:27-29 in context to Matthew 24:24? Contradictory or supportive?
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
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Catholica
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05/19/2012 17:32 |
Craig, I was thinking more along these lines, what Grogan thinks of Stephen and his vision in Acts 7:55:
Acts 7, Stephen speaking:
51“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors. 52Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.m 53You received the law as transmitted by angels, but you did not observe it.” 54When they heard this, they were infuriated, and they ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57But they cried out in a loud voice, covered their ears,* and rushed upon him together. 58They threw him out of the city, and began to stone him. The witnesses laid down their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59As they were stoning Stephen,q he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them”; and when he said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8
1Now Saul was consenting to his execution. On that day, there broke out a severe persecution* of the church in Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2Devout men buried Stephen and made a loud lament over him. 3Saul, meanwhile, was trying to destroy the church; entering house after house and dragging out men and women, he handed them over for imprisonment.
Stephen sees a vision, and then Saul (Paul) orders him to be stoned to death. Do you think that it was because of this? 'Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light' (2 Corinthians 11:14) Hardly. If Paul had known Stephen's vision was real, he would never have persecuted Stephen.
Then Jesus said to Saul (Paul):
1 Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord,a went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way,* he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. 3On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do.” 7The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, for they heard the voice but could see no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus. 9For three days he was unable to see, and he neither ate nor drank.
Now Saul (Paul) sees a vision of the Lord. Do you think that Saul said to himself, "'Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light' (2 Corinthians 11:14)"? Does anyone think that Saul should have disregarded the vision of the Lord because it could be from Satan, so who knows?
The fact is that the Church has been given a special grace of knowing the gospel, and when these visions conform to the gospel, then they are not dangerous. People really do receive visions from heaven. Stephen received one. Paul received one. John received a huge one and wrote it down. Did heaven suddenly just stop communicating with the people on Earth? I'm sorry, but the answer is no.
The Catholic Church takes a prudent stance when it comes to visions, and scrutinizes them carefully and never approves anything until the visions have stopped. I could post the process. Most visions are never recognized. But the visions in Kibeho are approved. And they contain fulfilled prophecy. How great is that?
I'm thankful that I have the Church to scrutinize visions because I too would be overly wary without them. That is the beauty of the Catholic faith, is that we don't have to act like scared children, but we can be confident that we are safe with regard to the supernatural.
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Saint Grogan
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05/19/2012 22:18 |
Craig,
If the faith of the elect is going to be tested in the later days, God is obviously going to allow it as He does with all believers any other time. Matthew 24:24 doesn’t say that the elect will be damned. What’s your point?
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Saint Grogan
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05/19/2012 23:04 |
Andre,
I fail to see how the visions of Stephen and Paul relate to Matthew 24:24, especially when Matthew 24:24 is in reference to the later days.
When Jesus said, “Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them” (Luke 21:8), He did not exclude “the Church” from this warning. He further warned the disciples, “if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:23-24). The word “Christ” means the anointed of God. It doesn’t always mean that the deceiver will claim to be Jesus, but that it will claim to come in the authority of Jesus. Many of the apparitions approved by Rome claim to come in Jesus’ name.
Jesus did not say that “the Church” will tell you which apparitions are from God and which are from the Devil. He said that even the elect will fall into deception. We know from Scripture that Satan too can manifest signs and wonders. We also know that Satan knows Scripture. We wouldn’t expect Satan to command people to curse God and sacrifice black cats. In order to deceive, he will teach righteousness, prayer and piety. He will communicate his lies wrapped in biblical truths, would he not?
You and I disagree on the definition of the “Church” as well as what the Gospel is. I’m not going to get into that on this thread. I would also like to try and be respectful and not get into a discussion about Mary, if we could avoid that.
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Catholica
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05/20/2012 08:03 |
Grogan, I didn't say that the visions of Stephen, Saul, John, (and let's not forget Peter, Acts 10:9ff) had anything to do with Matthew 24:24. The only reference I made was to 2 Corinthians 11:14. How can we know that Peter, Saul (Paul), Stephen and John were not also deceived by Satan, who "transforms himself into an angel of light"? In fact, isn't that exactly what Saul saw, a "messenger" (a meaning of the word "angel") in a "bright light"?
As for Matthew 24:24 and the argument that it applies to the "later days" and not to Peter, Paul, Stephen and John, first of all, visions of our Lord and Our Lady have been occurring throughout history, not just recently. But even so, even on the day of Pentecost, Peter calls even /that day/ one of the "last days":
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Acts 2
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, “You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words.
15These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.
16No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
18Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.
19And I will work wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below: blood, fire, and a cloud of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord,
21and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.’
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Peter uses this quote from the prophet Joel to justify to the Jews why people around them are speaking in tongues. Joel refers to the "last days", when the spirit will be "poured out upon all flesh". That is what was happening on the day of Pentecost, ergo, we have been in the "last days" since the day of Pentecost. Yet Peter also refers to the portion of Joel that refers to "dreaming dreams" and "seeing visions". Therefore the use of "last days" in Matthew 24:24 would by no means exclude the legitimate visions of Stephen, Peter, Paul and John.
So basically since we accept the visions of Peter, Paul, Stephen and John, and because we are in the last days, we should not immediately assume that all visions are from Satan. Therefore the verses that you have posted by no means negate the reality that these communications from heaven can be real.
Now I by no means advocate chasing after every vision, and I think that any vision from Heaven should be scrutinized not only by the person to the visions but also by faithful independent persons. I know that when Our Lord came to St. Faustina He encouraged her to be skeptical. But its anti-biblical to rule out that visions of the heavenly are automatically satanic. That is why I am thankful that I have the solid rock founded by Christ in the Catholic Church to discern the messages.
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Side note: you are posting in a discussion entitled "Rwanda and Our Lady of Kibeho". Our Lady of Kibeho refers to Mary. I appreciate and enjoy respectful dialogue and I encourage it, but you are already in a discussion that is by definition about Mary.
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Craig from Illinois
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05/20/2012 13:16 |
Grogan, My point is a question based on the scripture we recently listened too this week from John. If we hear the voice of Jesus and we know his voice then how can we be snatched out of God's hand? How can we be deceived? The question is in direct relationship to the accusation that the people of Rwanda were deceived by "Our Lady of Kibehois". How could that be unless the scripture from John was misleading. There's a contradiction between this scripture and Matt. 24:24.
Grogan, On another point - in my opinion the only reason you are quoting scripture in debate of Andre's posts is because you are generally biased against Catholic theology. I'm not going to say you're bigoted but it sure comes off that way when you fire off a verse instead of explaining your point! Andre is one of the best representatives and messengers of the light/love of Christ that we have here in the DAB forums. He uses scripture masterfully but it comes off as pleasing to the ear, uplifting, encouraging and [most importantly] it brings glory to God.
Using scripture in a biased and bigoted way is dangerous and sinful. It doesn't bring glory to God and it sure isn't pleasant to read. Even convicting scripture, (scripture that cuts the heart) is pleasing to the soul when it leads to the love of God and His will.
I don't know if you are able to see the difference or if you yourself are blinded by the "angel of light". One thing for sure is that as long as these posts sit here in the historical DAB history we will see a stark contrast of how scripture can be used to build up or break down. It's a useful lesson.
Sorry Andre for the diversion.
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Catholica
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05/20/2012 16:12 |
I need to retype the last two paragraphs because they were not as clear as I would like:
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We accept the visions of Peter, Paul, Stephen and John, who were also in the "last days", and the apostles themselves did not use the words they heard Jesus speak (recorded in Matthew 24:24) to immediately rule them out, nor did they make recourse to their teachings that Paul explained in 2 Cor. 11:14 to rule them out either. Therefore like the apostles we too should not immediately assume that all visions are from Satan. In summary the verses that you posted by no means negate the reality that any communication from heaven can be real, since the same verses could have been applied to those of Peter, Paul, Stephen and John.
Now I by no means advocate chasing after every vision, and I think that each and every vision from Heaven should be scrutinized not only by the person to whom the vision is appearing, but also independently by faithful persons who also rightly realize that visions are possible. I know that when Our Lord came to St. Faustina He encouraged her to be skeptical of him. She was convinced slowly but over time as the Lord was always faithful to His word.
Its anti-biblical to say that visions of the heavenly are automatically satanic. Denizens of heaven regularly communed with people on Earth throughout the Old Testament and into the New. The messages received always require great discernment, but they cannot be dismissed out of hand and sometimes can be quite important (such as the message of Our Lady of Kibeho, one of repentance, that would have prevented the Rwandan genocide).
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Saint Grogan
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05/20/2012 23:46 |
Craig,
I’m Sorry I offend you.
But I feel the deception in Kibelo is a serious matter.
If I come off a little aggressive, it is because I don’t have much time to spend on my posts. It is difficult to cram a lot of information into a post in a short amount of time so I am bound to sound a bit impersonal.
I am not a bigot (thank you very much) nor am I prejudiced against Roman Catholics. It’s not Roman Catholics I have a problem with. I happen to take care of a 76 year old Irish man who is very Roman Catholic. It’s the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church that I have a problem with. I have studied enough Roman Catholicism to know that it has serious issues. I have good reason to believe that the apparition of Our Lady of Kibelo is not from Heaven. I’m composing a reply to Andre’s post that will explain my reasons.
But, we’re getting off topic.
I would like to ask you a question if I may.
How long have you been a Christian?
Where in the Bible does say that God will not allow the elect to be deceived because they follow Christ, or are you making an assumption based on a conjecture?
Christ Himself warned His disciples in Luke 21:8, “And he said, Take heed that ye BE NOT DECEIVED: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.” Can we conclude from this verse that if Jesus Himself warned His disciples to take heed and not be deceived, that His disciples could be deceived? I think so.
Christ also warned His disciples in Matthew 24:24, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, THEY SHALL DECEIVE EVEN THE ELECT.” Can we conclude from this verse that if Jesus Himself warned His disciples that the very elect would be deceived, that the very elect will be deceived? I think so.
The elect won’t be “snached” out of God’s hand yet they can be deceived and stumble in their walk. This can caused others to stumble.
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