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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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RaceGirl
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05/18/2012 21:39 |
I don't really have any comments on this topic per se, but I think it's awesome that you are questioning and seeking answers. I think too many people (myself included sometimes) form an opinion based on what mentors or leaders teach or tell them. It's imperative that Christians seek these answers for themselves. Just because we once held an opinion doesn't mean more information can't change that. I was once completely and totally against gay marriage the minute I heard it mentioned. Until I heard a presentation about it in a class and studied it from a completely Constitutional perspective. That is not to say my original belief has changed, just that I have learned to view a topic from every possible angle.
Hope you have been able to find some answers to what you are questioning. :)
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Craig from Illinois
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05/19/2012 08:47 |
I am trying to ask a new question. The question we as Christians need to ask is not "What's wrong with this person that I need to fix?" but rather should be "How can I serve this person (who is different than me, who I'm a little scared of or offended by because they don't live the way I think a person should) like Jesus would serve them? How can I love this person like God loves this person? And how do I let God lead my service to them instead of trying to meddle in their lives on my own strength?"
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TRWord
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05/26/2012 16:49 |
Hi Matt
The problem is Contemporary Christianity has nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus Christ and every thing to do with “Church doctrine” and the OT is the GoTo for those who need to define God their way.
You said:
“For me the OT is basically a: "you get one chance; mess up and die"; NT is: "You can be a tax collector by day and prostitue by night, but God loves you". Has anyone else had trouble wrapping their minds around this? I don't expect to understand everything, but am I missing something?”
The scriptures presents us with two images of God. In the old testament God is presented as “wrath and vengeance” while in the new testament He is presented as “love and forgiveness.”
The old testament image is our view of God before the coming of Jesus Christ. Baptism and repentance is suppose to signify that we are getting rid of the old image and making way for a new one.
The two images are incompatible. We must progress from one to the other and not possess both at the same time. (SEE Matthew 9:16-17) Jesus uses a parable here to emphasize this point.
The new image is received through faith in Jesus Christ. We cannot know the Father unless He’s revealed by the Son. (SEE Luke 10:22)
This is God’s Universe and we are not authorized to judge anyone or anything. We’re taught to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and we’re to love our neighbour as ourself.
Every year thousands of persons are born both male and female, are we to conclude that God did not make them?
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112543002/man-discovers-hes-actually-a-woman-thanks-to-kidney-stone/
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Craig from Illinois
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05/26/2012 22:28 |
I just heard a podcast from the Drew Marshall Show with special guest, Bruxy Cavey. They addressed a few questions that match closely to what you are asking about, Matt. Take a listen on the web site or download the podcast.
Follow the link and scroll down to the January 28th, 2012 list until you see Bruxy Cavey.
http://www.drewmarshall.ca/listen2012.html
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Matthew Epperson
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05/27/2012 12:08 |
Hey Matt, (love the name). This is something I have questioned and struggled with a lot too. This is the best I've come up with, though I'm still thinking about it.
I think the OT is the story of God creating salvation through a culture, creating social pressures and even violence to attempt to create a people group perfectly in relationship with him. In that time, if you wanted to know God, you had to choose to enter in or stay in the culture of Israel. However, what the OT does is show that with all that pressure and instruction, and even with massive miracles cropping up every so many generations, mankind were simply not capable of achieving the heart change that is required to create this group in perfect relationship with God.
Enter Jesus, who made it possible for our hearts to be changed, and thus for us to create this perfect relationship, though we STILL don't get it quite right. The OT cultural laws are no longer in effect because Jesus made the social pressures unnecessary. In fact, I would argue that Christianity gets messed up quite often because people try to bring the social pressures back in. The MORAL laws continue because these are issues of that same said HEART that we are trying to align with God. Yet they are not so much LAWS now, as they are respect for the love we have for God, ie, I wouldn't spit in the face of someone I love, though it is incorrect to say there is a law against doing so.
So God hasn't changed his mind, he's changed his tactics. I think he did this primarily for our benefit. We needed to know that we cannot love him through mere external actions and laws, but only through love and respect for his Character. We needed to know this through the evidence of experience rather than simply by being told. If simply being told was enough, I don't think we would have ever left the garden of Eden.
My main problem with the question of sin and making laws against cultural sins, or sins that happen privately, is that we Christians sometimes seem to forget that when we make a law in this country, we are in effect pointing a gun at people and saying "you cannot do this." It doesn't matter if there are many layers of soft velvet between us and the person we are forcing to behave, or not behave, in a certain way, the violence is still promised. If a person is merely fined for a crime, they may say "I don't think it was a crime" and refuse to pay. At that point, the stakes go higher and the velvet begins to be removed. Jail time comes in, and if you try to defend yourself from going to jail against your will, you could very easily get shot. All of that is more OT social force stuff or pre coming of Jesus stuff, as apposed to changing the hearts of people through the love of Jesus. In Jesus, we are to teach people to be not merely moral but virtuous and loving. And THAT should, I think, be the main response of any Christian to sins that are private or social (rather than sins which harm another person directly, like murder or theft). Our reaction should be to love people in to the Kingdom of God, and if a gun needs to be pointed, to let God do it.
That is my best thoughts for now, though I think there is probably more to it, so I'm staying humbly thoughtful and open. :)
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TRWord
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05/27/2012 16:09 |
Craig I checked out the podcast you recommended. Predictable Mr Cavey spoke for over 25 minutes and he never once mention repentance which is the key to understanding these two vastly different images of God.
Consequently his take on the old testament is that God parented Israel very severely at that time.
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Craig from Illinois
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05/28/2012 07:44 |
TRWord,
I see that you made a reference to repentance in your post... "Baptism and repentance is suppose to signify that we are getting rid of the old image and making way for a new one."
Now that you've pointed out that repentance is the key to understanding the two different images of God, please expand on that idea. I know that repentance is far more important than a metaphor. How does repentance change our view of God? Interesting!
Side note... I've heard a lot of Bruxy Cavey. I know he teaches repentance as a part of salvation. Is it possible that the exclusion from mentioning it while on the topic of OT views of God was unintentional or should it have come up as point #1?
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TRWord
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05/28/2012 22:26 |
Craig
The Bible is not just a book of rules it’s also the story of our relationship with God. The old testament represents our image of God seen through the flesh while the new testament is our image of Him given through faith in Jesus Christ.
The mission of John the Baptiste was to prepare “the way” of the Lord. Repentance means putting aside the old understanding gain through the flesh and preparing for a new one giving by the spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.
The problem is; most of us have interpreted repentance through the flesh as “feeling sorrow for our sins” because we have also interpreted Christ death on the cross through the flesh, seeing it the same as the lamb of the old testament; a sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sin.
We have missed that John the Baptiste said: “Behold the Lamb of God.” Jesus Christ is God’s Lamb in other words God is the one who’s offering the sacrifice here.
Also to make a clear distinction between His blood, and the blood of the old testament, Jesus said:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28KJV)
The problem is; many of us have not fully repented. Our understanding is a mixture of the old and the new much to our confusion. Jesus used the parable of “putting a piece of a new garment upon an old” and “putting new wine into old bottles” to illustrate this condition. (SEE Matthew 9:16-17 and Luke 5:36-39)
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Craig from Illinois
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05/29/2012 08:07 |
What are some of the repercussions of interpreting repentance "through the flesh" vs. "through faith in Jesus Christ"? If person A believes through the flesh, what would I expect to see as an outcome. If person B believes what you posted above, what would I expect to see in that persons Biblical and Worldview?
(Basically, what's the difference?)
Thanks TR...
Craig
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TRWord
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05/29/2012 21:57 |
Craig
The basic difference between the two is; one limits us to human understanding while the other takes us unto spiritual understanding. (SEE 1 Cor. 2:12-14)
Faith is the necessary requirement, for this journey. The problem is, even our understanding of faith is limited. In most dictionaries belief and faith are considered to be synonymous, and while this is literally true, the faith that’s required for the spiritual journey is of an entirely different understanding.
Faith requires that we accept that we do not yet understand. It’s the confidence in the word of Jesus Christ that a new understanding would be revealed to us: And repentance is the process of getting rid of human knowledge to make way for the knowledge of God.
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