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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ted C
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06/04/2012 09:16 |
Fascinating Steve. I like that explanation of it. It makes sense.
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Craig from Illinois
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06/04/2012 11:19 |
Thanks for responding Grogan. It sure is quiet around here isn't it? For the record, I believe that salvation comes from Christ when a person repents and believes in Him. That being said, every once in a while a passage comes along that challenges conventional wisdom. I would like to review the text again and then break it down.
John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Some things I noticed:
1) Jesus revels himself to disciples and then proves who he is by showing them his pierced body. Perhaps this detail was recorded to make a point to the original reader that this was not a fake or impostor of Jesus? I'm also assuming the disciples needed to see these proofs too in order to convince them that Jesus was alive. Whatever the case, it is important to know that this was the real ressurcted Jesus. So his words are true and important!
2)Jesus comes to them for a purpose. The purpose is in vs.21 "Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” Why was Jesus sent and why were the disciples being sent? John 3:16-17 clearly points out the purpose for Jesus being sent...
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
3) Vs. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit." Now things are getting interesting! The Holy Spirit, the counselor that Jesus talked about being given to them, comes directly through the breath of the resurrected Jesus! In the book of Acts we read today, Luke describes Pentecost. But Pentecost came after Jesus ascended. I think this is pretty significant. Jesus breaths on them! So I don't want to hear it explained that Jesus is telling them they have to wait a few more days or weeks for Pentecost. It sounds to me that the Holy Spirit came to them while Jesus was still with them.
4) After Jesus tells them to "receive the Holy Spirit", he confirms the mission of why He was sent and why the disciples are being sent. The ultimate purpose to forgive sins. It's a direct quote of Jesus... "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” Jesus had the same power and authority to forgive or not forgive. Did Jesus withhold forgiveness to anyone? Maybe the rich young ruler described in Mark 10:17-27?
So, Grogan... again thanks for responding. I enjoy a good discussion. Now, let me say one thing. If Jesus meant what you think he meant, then maybe he should have said it like you said it. Maybe he should have said something like, "Disciples, Those whose sins you forgive HAVE ALREADY BEEN forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive HAVE NOT BEEN forgiven." Maybe he should have added this too... "I know I've taught you that only God can forgive sins. So that is why I am breathing God's Spirit into you." And maybe he should have said this too... “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." Oh yeah, Jesus did say that last thing in John 14!
But Grogan, you have intentionally misquoted scripture. At least you did it by implying the interpretation of very common and orthodox scripture, like Luke 5:21. But still, Jesus didn't actually say what you think he said, even with the perfect verb tense. Translators throughout history haven't made a clear distinction in their copies.
What should we do then? Ignore this passage because it doesn't quite line up to other scripture or should we do some interpretive gymnastics to make it fit? Can a Holy Spirit filled person forgive sins, considering it is the power of God in the person who is doing the forgiving? Is this the "greater works" that Jesus spoke of in John 14? Which is greater, to forgive sins or tell someone to get up and walk?
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Craig from Illinois
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06/04/2012 11:36 |
Just another quick thought. There are two types of sins, both damnable. Sins against God and sins against man. The 10 commandments clearly mark the distinction. When someone sins against God, it's sensible to ask God for forgiveness. But when someone sins against man, perhaps it's best to ask the person that was offended for their forgiveness.
Have you ever had someone offend you then they ask for forgiveness with a true and repentant heart? As the person who grants forgiveness, there is power in the act. I think when a person forgives, it really is forgiveness of offenses (a.k.a. "sin")
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Catholica
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06/04/2012 17:05 |
Craig,
The Catholic belief is that, in breathing on the apostles and saying this to them, that Jesus gave the apostles and their episcopal successors the authority to forgive sins, or to not forgive sins. In the current day Catholic Church, we believe that the bishops are the successors to the apostles, and they in turn grant the authority to forgive sins to Catholic priests in their dioceses.
The sacrament of confession is wonderful, and I believe that Jesus knew not only the power of forgiveness from God, but also the human need to a) confess one's sins aloud to another person and b) to have that person be present as the Lord was once present and like Jesus, through the authority granted by Jesus, actually forgive them their sins.
2 Cor. 5:18-21
And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
Matthew 9:1-8
He entered a boat, made the crossing, and came into his own town. And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, “Why do you harbor evil thoughts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.” He rose and went home. When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to *human beings*.
James 5:14-16a
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
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Craig from Illinois
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06/04/2012 21:18 |
Very interesting, Andre. So I am on to something then! So often I hear that whatever the Apostles were told to do by Christ, by default we are to do the same. Except for this one. I've never been told that being a believer, follower, Spirit born, baptized, disciple of Jesus also gives me the authority to forgive sins. In fact it's blasphemy.
So now Andre and Grogan agree that I do not have the authority to forgive sins. We know what Grogan has said in his response. But Andre agrees with my assertion that Jesus says the disciples could forgive sins. Unfortunately, only those in the "episcopal succession" (i.e. bishops and priest) have that authority.
Since I am not a bishop or priest and since I am an evangelical protestant, I have both camps saying I don't have the authority. Oppression from both sides! Interesting.
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Saint Grogan
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06/05/2012 04:53 |
Craig,
You said that in the episcopal succession, only bishops and priest have that authority to forgive sins. If they are basing that on John 20:23, that would be incorrect, at least according to my understanding.
In John 20:22-23, the Lord was not speaking to a group of ordained priests because It says that His audience was a group made up of ten Apostles and several “other” disciples. This is why I believe that the application of John 20:23 is not restricted to just clergy. I would like to point out Luke’s account as well. Christ says:
“Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things”. (Luke 24:46-48)
Here, the disciples were to forth and proclaim the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. They were to be witnesses of what God had already done.
Craig, you also said that, “Jesus didn't actually say what I think He said, even with the perfect verb tense and that Translators throughout history haven't made a clear distinction in their copies.” Could you please elaborate a little on this statement?
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Catholica
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06/05/2012 06:22 |
Craig, there is an interesting dynamic here, because as I understand it we have an obligation to forgive others when they sin against us, and this forgiveness given by another person in the body of Christ plays an important role in reconciling us with each other. And then there is the matter of having our sins forgiven by God as well.
So whenever you say to another Christian who has wronged you, "I forgive you" you are taking part in reconciliation within the body of Christ. But what if you wrong another person and they will not forgive you? Your soul still needs that knowledge that forgiveness that only another living person can bring. Thus I believe that it is not incorrect to say that in effect I could offer you that human part of the forgiveness, since I am another part in the body of Christ, even though I am not ordained. However you still have to also repent to God. I am not a minister of that sort of sanctifying grace to you like God is, and God can and does forgive people directly when they sincerely repent to Him. You just have to tell yourself that you are forgiven when you repent, but I think that there is naturally a doubt in many people's hearts whether they are truly forgiven by God.
That is where Christ helps us. In his ministers, we have both: another person in the body of Christ, and also someone ordained by Christ to act on behalf of Christ, whom Christ works through. The priest/bishop plays both roles. Thus in God's perfect plan, with his knowledge of the human condition, he ordained for us that we would have a person to whom we can confess our sins and receive forgiveness from both God and man and know with absolute assurance and confidence that our sins have been forgiven.
Here is more about the Catholic beliefs regarding reconciliation:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm
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Craig from Illinois
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06/05/2012 06:45 |
The "episcopal succession" debate will have to be between you and Andre. I'm just restating what Andre explained.
Showing Luke 24:46-48 is a good point, Grogan. I believe that is the truth. But is it the exclusive truth in regards to forgiveness? Jesus taught who we should forgive, how many times we should do it and gave some examples of true forgiveness. Was it just so we could all get along? Or does forgiving one another have an eternal facet to it? Dare I say that if I forgive my brother, it is as if the offense never occurred?
Justification through faith in Christ is a bedrock theological point for me. In no way am I saying that I have the power to Justify anyone before God. To be consistent, I don't believe this scripture announces that we have the authority to forgive ALL sins. I made that point earlier in saying that sins against God are between the offender and God. Sins against man are between the offender and man. Perhaps that blows a hole in my interpretation of John 20:23.
I think I am understanding Andre's point to mean that the "episcopal succession" ARE given authority to forgive ALL sins. I'm not sure I am ready to go that far.
Here is maybe a clearer example... If someone withholds forgiveness, even after the offender asks forgiveness from God and is Justified, is the offender unforgiven? John 20:23 says, unforgiven. That's a powerful statement as well!
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Craig from Illinois
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06/05/2012 06:47 |
Andre, I see we posted at nearly the same time. My response was without seeing your last entry.
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Catholica
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06/05/2012 10:02 |
The reason I bring up episcopal succession is twofold. One is that Craig rightly recognizes that Jesus did give the power to forgive sins, and the power to withhold forgiveness of sins to men. That teaching is clear elsewhere, especially in the verses I pasted. The second is that in John 20:20-23, the concept of binding and loosing is tied in. We find this elsewhere in scripture:
Matthew 16
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18
15 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
One has to understand the Jewish religion to understand binding and loosing. It is a good study. Basically this was an authority that those who were in places of authority in the Jewish religion had, and only they had. This power gave them the authority to determine what was binding under the law and what was not. Different schools of Judaism had different rules. In one house of thought (Hillel) something was bound (required) and in another house (Shammai) that same thing could be loosed (not required).
We see Jesus founding his own sect of Judaism in Matthew 16 and 18 and giving his apostles (and naturally, their successors) the same authority to bind and loose. Note also that Matthew was the gospel to the Jews. This language meant something to the Jews that is obscured to us today. We know that this sect that Jesus founded was given true authority directly from God himself.
If we turn to John 20, we can see this same language: bind and loose. It is used in a new way, with regard to sins. This is a gift from God to His Church, that this gift of the Holy Spirit, who is the sanctifier, should be available through these men to "recreate" men's souls, so to speak. In Christ, we are a new creation: through repentance and baptism, we are a new creation. There is a parallel here with the creation story, which is the only other time God breathes on man, and that was to give life to Adam. It is through this ability to forgive sins that we are given new life.
Yet John goes so far as to note that Jesus used the language "bind and loose". And again, in Matthew 16 and 18, this capability is given distinctly to apostles alone. Yes there are other people present in John, but that doesn't mean that they were able to forgive sins, it is not clear exactly whom Jesus breathed upon, but the "disciples" as John calls them were distinctly mentioned, and it was always so in Judaism that only those of the hierarchy had the authority to bind and loose. So it stands to reason that only those ministers ordained by the Church were granted this power by the Church. At first this was only the apostles and others holding episcopal offices, and then later to priests. The authority to found the NT diaconate and the NT priesthood was given to the Church by Jesus when He gave them His authority to bind and loose, and similarly the ability to forgive sins on behalf of God was also given to bishops and later NT priests to forgive sins by that same authority.
So basically it appears that in John 20 Jesus is giving a truly great gift indeed, the authority to forgive sins, to men, certain men with the authority to bind and loose and anyone they decided to give that authority to.
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