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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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09/27/2012 15:53 |
Davidwayne
You continue to quote verses and verses of scripture.
What I’m trying to get from you is your understanding of what the scripture you are quoting is saying.
You said:
“I consider the blood of Jesus to be far superior than that of bulls and goats.”
How?
The Hebrews shed the blood of bulls and goats for the forgiveness of sin and you believe that Jesus blood was likewise shed for the forgiveness of sin.
Gal 4:21-4:31 You quote the scripture, then you again fail to give your understanding by saying you believe it’s self explanatory.
Obviously we have two different understandings of what is being said here and I just asking for your understanding.
You use terms like “the strictures of the ceremonial law.”
What do you mean when you say this?
You also said:
“And you never did answer the question, do you believe you have a sin nature?”
Please read my last post to Ted, there you find my understanding of “our sinful nature.”
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John T
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09/29/2012 13:15 |
TRWord, you are so stuck on one line in the Bible that you ignore the rest of God's word. You stated that Revelation doesn't show Satan being cast out -- if you don't believe that then there are Jesus own words saying he saw Satan cast out. I get so frustrated reading this and watching how you are trying to lead this community astray. Read the Statement of Belief on the main page. If you disagree, you are free to take your own religion elsewhere. Pardon the frankness, but this discussion is rather annoying. This site is about reading the Bible every day, and you don't even listen to the words being read! Perhaps I should take a forum break...
Thanks all,
John out.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/29/2012 19:23 |
TRW, how do I consider the blood of Jesus to be superior to the blood of bulls and goats? It is the difference between outer cleansing of the flesh(sin nature) and the inner cleansing of the heart and mind.
The blood of bulls and goats was ceremonial and temporary. It had to be done time and time again to atone for sin. As with all the ceremonial practices instituted by God through Moses, they were a precursor and representation of what Jesus would come to do. When Jesus came He fulfilled all the requirements of the ceremonial laws that the Jews were subject to and bound to by the Old Covenant with His more perfect sacrifice on the cross and set us free from the bonds(strictures) of the law. A sacrifice so perfect it never needed to be done again. So both Old and New Testaments were sealed by blood. The Old temporary and the new permanent, both for sins. Notice the plural sins in Heb. 9:14 and not just sin nature.
Heb 9:13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow could cleanse people's bodies from ceremonial impurity.
Heb 9:14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered Himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.
I read Ted's post. You only admit to having been born with a sin nature. You have not said if you believe you still have a sin nature or not. Very cleaver dodge and you continue to misrepresent yourself.
Do you believe you still have a sin nature?
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TRWord
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09/30/2012 14:54 |
Davidwayne
Said: “TRW, how do I consider the blood of Jesus to be superior to the blood of bulls and goats?”
“The blood of bulls and goats was ceremonial and temporary. It had to be done time and time again to atone for sin.”
Are you saying here that the blood of bulls and goats was temporary because the Jews were still sinners after this blood was shed because of “their sinful nature inherited from Adam.” And it had to be done time and time again because they would sin again and again.
And you said:
“When Jesus came He fulfilled all the requirements of the ceremonial laws that the Jews were subject to and bound to by the Old Covenant with His more perfect sacrifice on the cross and set us free from the bonds(strictures) of the law. A sacrifice so perfect it never needed to be done again.”
Are you saying here that Jesus’s blood was shed to saved us from that which causes us to sin “our sinful nature which we inherited from Adam.” And when this had been done it never needed to be done again.
Is this what you are saying?
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Ted C
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10/01/2012 17:44 |
TRWord,
So the "sinful nature" is the same as having "the knowledge of good and evil", and therefore the remedy for mankind's condition is to stop believing that good and evil exists. If only we could come to this realization we would come to life.
And belief in the sacrificial Blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from sin is erroneous because that is still the belief in good and evil. The cure for the sinful nature in reality rests on each of us by ourselves as we reject belief that good or evil exists.
Is that close to the mark in terms of what you believe?
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TRWord
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10/02/2012 16:06 |
No Ted
This question is more worthy of a politician than a person who is in quest of the truth.
You and I have gone back and forth enough that you should know that I do not believe that we can save ourselves without the blood of Jesus Christ which is what you are suggesting here.
There is evidence here of the wrong spirit, a deceptive spirit, the desire to protect a particular doctrine and not the desire to know the truth.
Like the scribes and Pharisees who had the truth right before them and yet chose to protect their traditional beliefs, you are doing the same.
Jesus called us to the truth. Let your desire be to know the truth and nothing else.
Should you continue to accredit the blood of Christ to that which is freely given to us of God; “the forgiveness of sins,” then to you Christ has died in vain.
Search the gospel, you’ll never find a statement where Jesus Christ said He was going to the cross for the forgiveness of sin.
He did say that He had the power on earth to forgive sins and that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men.
We were all taught the same doctrine, but hopefully at some point we realize that salvation is for “whosoever believeth in Him,” and not for the belief in what is said of Him.
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Ted C
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10/03/2012 01:07 |
I sincerely am trying to get a clear understanding of your theology.
So what exactly do you believe the Blood of Jesus does?
And what exactly do you believe the end state looks like - in terms of one's thoughts regarding good and evil - after one has been cured from the knowledge of good and evil? Do they cease to believe good and evil exists? Do they only believe evil exists as a consequence of the belief in good and evil? Does evil really exist? Please explain clearly.
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Craig from Illinois
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10/03/2012 05:54 |
Good luck, Ted.
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TRWord
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10/04/2012 15:51 |
Ted
I know here in the age of the tweet most of us would like everything to be explained to us in five words or less but that is not possible in the case of the things of God.
If it was Jesus would have explained it all in a single statement but instead He used an array of parables and He said:
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
In other words understanding the message of Jesus Christ requires work; a desire and a commitment.
You asked:
“So what exactly do you believe the Blood of Jesus does?”
Here is a one line answer: The blood of Jesus Christ was shed to save us from “a sinful nature” that we have inherited from Adam.
But the death of Jesus Christ was also an act of obedience to show us “the way to life.”
As Isaiah said:
Is. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
In our modern day vernacular....it’s complicated.
You also asked:
“And what exactly do you believe the end state looks like - in terms of one's thoughts regarding good and evil - after one has been cured from the knowledge of good and evil? Do they cease to believe good and evil exists? Do they only believe evil exists as a consequence of the belief in good and evil? Does evil really exist? Please explain clearly.”
This is really two questions:
1 How are we delivered from the knowledge of good and evil.
2 What the end state looks like.
When a we are filled with the knowledge of God we are delivered from the knowledge of good and evil.
This leads to the question how do we become filled with the knowledge of God; Through the teaching of Jesus Christ.
What the end state looks like?
There are many accounts in the scriptures.
Jesus said:
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
This is the revelation that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is all that exist.
Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
When we realize that God in person of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is all that exist, heaven rejoices Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
We blaspheme against the Holy Ghost as long as we believe in the existence of any other being but God.
This is what knowing good and evil does to us.
And this is what Jesus is saying here:
Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
When we become conscious of no other being but God we have entered into His kingdom and we are saved. This is what the end state looks like.
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Ted C
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10/05/2012 01:33 |
TRWord thank you. I now have a much clearer understanding of what you believe. That's all I was after. I'm thinking you already have a clear picture of what I believe - the separate nature of God from His creation, our being made in His image, our separation from Him because of sin, God's own payment for our sin in the person of Himself, Jesus Christ, 100% man and 100% God concurrently who died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins, rising victorious on the third day conquering death, etc.
It helps immensely to know what you believe and should make conversing much easier moving forward.
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