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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/22/2012 19:11 |
No TRW, the serpent was there and he was evil and he was Satan. Scripture is clear and you deny the very Bible you say you believe by your repeated denial of Gen.3:4-5. Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the very beginning.
Joh 8:44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.
It is clear that Satan is the father of lies, the first to lie and cause death to come to man. The reason Jesus called Satan a murderer from the beginning. He was already a liar before he beguiled Eve in the Garden of Eden. A liar from the very beginning. A liar before Eve sinned, and then Adam causing man to have a sin nature falling away from the purity they started in by choosing to follow into what Satan had subtly conned them into by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A knowledge that Satan already had otherwise he could not have been more subtle than any beast of the field.
It was not the knowledge of good and evil that made man sinful. It was following Satan that did it instead of obeying God and refusing to eat the fruit. That is why there was death even before the Law of Moses. It is because of our sin nature which we inherited from Adam and Eve. It is still about sin and our sinfulness.
Jesus came to conquer sin and death. Our sin nature as well as all the sins we have committed for which we need forgiveness. To restore us to the Father through Him and with The Holy Spirit that enables us to follow God's commandments. Without The Holy Spirit in us we are not able to truly follow God's commandments. We would still be at the mercy of our sinful nature without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is how we become one with God. It is through the help and prompting of The Holy Spirit in us and not of ourselves alone, for we can do nothing right.
Do you believe you have a sin nature?
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Ted C
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09/23/2012 01:02 |
Davidwayne, well said.
In order for man to have been made in the image of God we had to have free will. That will does not violate the sovereignty of God. Somehow God has worked it out so that both He is Sovereign and so that men and angels have independent wills and are accountable for our choices. I believe God did this because God is Love.
1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."
God is love and wanted us to be in love, and we would not be capable of love without choice because love is a choice. It is not a matter of the emotions but of the will.
Deuteronomy 30:19b,20 "therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
Of course doing evil is choosing, knowingly or unknowingly, to go against God's nature.
Romans 12:21 "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
So the tree was of the knowledge of good and evil by virtue of the fact that if Adam or Eve chose to eat from it, they were committing evil by violating God's command from Genesis 2:17.
Genesis 2:16,17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
The command was given so man would have a choice and so that love on man's part could really be love. Otherwise we'd be like computer screen-savers flashing the text, "I love God... I love God..." We'd be machines, not men made in the image of God.
Satan, the angel who had initially been in charge of worship, had already turned and made the choice to be evil. And Scripture never mentions redemption for the angels.
Ezekiel is a prophesy against the King of Tyre, and it compares him to Satan, telling Satan's story.
Ezekiel 28:12-18 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Jesus corroborates this in Luke 10, referring to a prophecy about the king of Babylon from Isaiah 14 which compares the king to Satan, like the king of Tyre prophecy in Ezekiel 28, and which tells even more of the story.
Luke 10:17-19 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Isaiah 14:12-15 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
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TRWord
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09/23/2012 05:18 |
Davidwayne
You continue to consider the blood of Jesus Christ the same as the blood of bulls and goats of the old testament even though Jesus said:
Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
You ask me questions all the time and I try my best to answer them so I’d like to ask you a question.
What do think Paul is saying to you here:
Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal. 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Or do you believe that this scripture that you can just ignore.
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TRWord
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09/23/2012 15:48 |
Ted
You ask me questions and you are adamant that I answer them.
My question was:
“Why didn’t God warn Adam against the serpent? Why instead He warned him against "knowing good and evil.”
You haven’t answered my question instead have gone unto a discourse that God did “what you believe He did” because He loves us.
Quoting:
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Can we believe that God is love and believe that He allowed an evil serpent in the garden any more than we can believe that our next door neighbour love his son and allowed a serpent in his back yard. We might we say we do, but in our hearts we would not.
As Jesus said what’s in our mouths is not in our hearts.
Matt. 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
You are focused on Genesis 3:4-5
Gen. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen. 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
What you have failed to realize is;
If you believe God the serpent is a liar, but if you believe the serpent then you have been deceived.
This where we choose.
If you obey God against “knowing good and evil” then the serpent is not evil. If the serpent is evil you have disobeyed God and you have been deceived.
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Catholica
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09/23/2012 18:56 |
TRWord, we know from the Old Testament that God did in fact release serpents on his people at one point. Why would God do such a thing?
The answer that Christianity brings is that God allows evil to effect a greater good. If God had not allowed the serpent into Eden, there would never have been the need for God to become one of us, for Jesus to become incarnate. Therefore the God allowed because the result (our redemption) demonstrated His love for us more than if He had not.
A similar corollary exists between God releasing serpents on the people of Israel. He released them not only as just punishment but also so that He could create a type of Jesus on the cross using the staff with the bronze serpent on it. Just as when the people looked at the serpent on the staff and were healed from the punishment due to their transgressions, so could people one day look to Jesus on the cross to receive the healing (the salve: savior) for their souls.
Numbers 21:4-9
From Mount Hor they set out by way of the Red Sea, to bypass the land of Edom, but the people’s patience was worn out by the journey; so the people complained against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness, where there is no food or water? We are disgusted with this wretched food!” So the LORD sent among the people seraph serpents, which bite the people so that many of the Israelites died. Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray to the LORD to take the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people, and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover. Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered.
John 3:14-15
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
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TRWord
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09/24/2012 16:41 |
Catholica
Most Christians are yet to accept that the first and the fundamental commandment is against “the knowledge of good and evil.” So they remain in disobedience.
They concoct convoluted yarns like what you have written saying that God permits evil for this or that reason.
What it is, is the refusal to believe God.
Example Davidwayne used John 8:44 as proof that the serpent was evil, suggesting that Jesus is saying so here:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I’m sure that Davidwayne knows that Jesus never disobeyed the commandments of the Father but isn’t that what he is suggesting that Jesus did here.
When Jesus spoke of the devil, He was not disobeying God commandment. He said that we are the children of the devil. We are the offsprings of a lie; “the knowledge of good and evil.” When Jesus spoke of satan or the devil He did not mean what many of us do because He obeyed the commandment of the Father.
Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Davidwayne said:
“It is clear that Satan is the father of lies, the first to lie and cause death to come to man.”
Notice he is saying that satan is the cause of death and not “the knowledge of good and evil” as God said:
This is the consequence of seeing satan as an evil being and disobeying God’s commandment against “knowing good and evil.”
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/24/2012 22:44 |
TRW,
Example Davidwayne used John 8:44 as proof that the serpent was evil, suggesting that Jesus is saying so here:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I’m sure that Davidwayne knows that Jesus never disobeyed the commandments of the Father but isn’t that what he is suggesting that Jesus did here.
No TRW, I was suggesting no such thing. Jesus made that statement and Jesus never lies. Your convoluted logic astounds me. Jesus was the only one who never sinned therefore His statement is true and so is the fact He stated in John 8:44.
I've stated this before in a different thread but I am going to state it again. If there was no good and evil there could not have been a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A tree I would remind you that God Himself planted. How does this plain simple logic escape you?
Your premise is fundamentally flawed and the whole of your doctrine is based on a fundamentally flawed premise. Your premise I would remind you was not originally God's commandment against knowing good and evil but the belief in good and evil. The commandment God gave was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A whole different commandment than what you originally stated.
If God command against knowing good and evil even as you say then by your own words there had to be good and evil to know about. God would not command against knowing something that does not exist. How then can you say that the belief in good and evil is the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit.
You are right about one thing. I am saying that the knowledge of good and evil was not the cause of death. It was disobeying God and following Satan's temptation that did.
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Ted C
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09/25/2012 02:00 |
TRWord, I think I finally got it.
When you say, "knowledge of good and evil" you mean "belief in the existence of sin".
Maybe believing in sin itself could be classified as a type of "sin", but it's not really a big deal; it just means someone is missing out on what's best in life if they believe in sin. In other words, the "sin" of believing in sin itself isn't the big deal that most Christians make sin out to be, when they persist in believing in good and evil. Rather, it just means a person hasn't come to a higher spiritual understanding yet and is missing out on the peace and joy of knowing that sin doesn't really exist.
Am I close to the mark?
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TRWord
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09/25/2012 16:40 |
Ted
We talk a lot about Adam’s transgression but do we have a clear understanding of what Adam’s transgression was. What did Adam do?
Yes he disobeyed God.
We have been led to believe that it was the act of disobedience that damned him and damned us all, but that is a fallacy.
This fallacy has blinded us and led us to many other false beliefs.
God warned Adam against “the knowledge of good and evil.”
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Yes Adam was tempted by the serpent but Adam was a free agent he had the choice to obey God or be deceived by the serpent.
This is where everything gets fuzzy for many of us. We begin focusing on the serpent and we miss that Adam partook of “the knowledge of good and evil.”
This has caused us to be unable to separate two very important things; “acts of sin” and “the sinful nature or that which causes us to sin.”
This is what Paul is trying to explain here:
Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Here he is talking about “the sinful nature, that which causes us to sin,” which we all inherited from Adam.
Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Here he is talking about “acts of sin.” Notice he saying that “acts of sin” was in the world before the law of Moses but they were not imputed before the law.
Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Here he’s explaining that even though “acts of sins” were not imputed before the law death reigned anyway.
Paul is explaining that we are not damned by the “acts of sin” we commit we damned because we are sinners. We are damned because we have a “sinful nature.”
God forgives us of our sin but what is the use we just turn around and sin again because we are sinners.
Ted .....so what we have to be saved from is that which makes us sinners “our sinful nature” which we inherited from Adam.
Adam gained a sinful nature when he disobeyed God and partook of the knowledge of good and evil.
This tells us plainly that “knowing good and evil” is what makes us sinners, it’s the cause of “our sinful nature” and it’s what we inherited from Adam.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/26/2012 15:44 |
TRW, you said,
Davidwayne
You continue to consider the blood of Jesus Christ the same as the blood of bulls and goats of the old testament even though Jesus said:
Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
No TRW I do not consider the blood of Jesus to be the same except in what the blood represents. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. I consider the blood of Jesus to be far superior than that of bulls and goats. The 9th chapter of Hebrews makes it very clear how so and why.
Heb 9:9 This is an illustration pointing to the present time. For the gifts and sacrifices that the priests offer are not able to cleanse the consciences of the people who bring them.
Heb 9:10 For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies—physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established.
Heb 9:11 So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
Heb 9:12 With His own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—He entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.
Heb 9:13 Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow could cleanse people's bodies from ceremonial impurity.
Heb 9:14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered Himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Heb 9:15 That is why He is the One who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.
Heb 9:16 Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead.
Heb 9:17 The will goes into effect only after the person's death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.
Heb 9:18 That is why even the first covenant was put into effect with the blood of an animal.
Heb 9:19 For after Moses had read each of God's commandments to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, and sprinkled both the book of God's law and all the people, using hyssop branches and scarlet wool.
Heb 9:20 Then he said, "This blood confirms the covenant God has made with you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way, he sprinkled blood on the Tabernacle and on everything used for worship.
Heb 9:22 In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.
Heb 9:23 That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.
Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 And He did not enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal.
Heb 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, He has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by His own death as a sacrifice.
Heb 9:27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for Him.
TRW you also said Jesus did not come to save us from our sins but our sin nature. You got it half right. Jesus died to save us from not only our sin nature but our actual sins that we have committed as Heb. 9:14-15 says in unvarnished language.
You said,
What do think Paul is saying to you here:
Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal. 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Or do you believe that this scripture that you can just ignore.
No TRW I never ignore any part of scripture but neither do I have a habit of taking verses out of context. The parallels in these verses you quote are about living in faith born of the Spirit and promise like Abraham and Isaac had, verses those that are carnally minded and live in the ways of the flesh as did those who tried to get the Church in Galatia to go back to observing the ceremonial law.
We were freed from the strictures of the ceremonial law by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and made sons and daughters of the of the promise. We are Freeborn. This was to all who believe in and accept Jesus as the Son of God. And after His death and resurrection Jesus sent The Holy Spirit to live in His Saints and all who will be His,(Acts 2). So we are freeborn and live in The Spirit.
You posted only a part of what Paul was dealing with and came up with a partial and misleading conclusion.
Here is the rest of what Paul meant in his letter to the Galations which I believe is self explanatory.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says?
Gal 4:22 The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife.
Gal 4:23 The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God's promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God's own fulfillment of His promise.
Gal 4:24 These two women serve as an illustration of God's two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.
Gal 4:25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
Gal 4:26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 As Isaiah said, "Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!"
Gal 4:28 And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.
Gal 4:29 But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.
Gal 4:30 But what do the Scriptures say about that? "Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman's son."
Gal 4:31 So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman.
And you never did answer the question, do you believe you have a sin nature?
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