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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Bibleman
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08/11/2012 20:13 |
Ted, you and TRW will not ever reach an end to this argument, or rather, discussion (debate?). TRW is speaking in allegory and you are speaking in dialectic (deductive logic). Watching the discussion is kind of like watching two people arguing in different languages with each other...
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Craig from Illinois
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08/12/2012 09:15 |
Good analysis James. What form of speaking is Paul using when he wrote his letters? I assume something that resembles Greek logic reasoning. This is an area I have very limited knowledge but it seems to be very important if we are to understand his letters. It reminds me of what Brian addressed on the 8/7/12 podcast commentary. He talked about how we, as modern day readers of the Bible, interpret scripture with our scientific/logical worldview.
Here is the link to the transcript...
http://www.dailyaudiobible.com/Forums/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1000033051#new
My basic question is, is Paul speaking our language?
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Ted C
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08/12/2012 15:31 |
I know James. I just like to reason and try to persuade. You never know when something could get through to another person. And only recently Andre corrected me about "two or three witnesses", so Im' on the receiving end in these discussions as well.
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TRWord
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08/13/2012 06:34 |
Ted
Jesus said:
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Matt 15:8
This is exactly what he was speaking about here. You said: I believe the Bible is entirely authoritative, and then you immediately demonstrate something completely different. You also believe that the Bible should be interpreted literally. Then you reject the fact that the Bible literally says that God warned Adam against the consequence of the belief in good and evil.
You said: “Some people go so far these days as to teach against substitutionary atonement. This school of thought has been in the seminaries for over one-hundred years.”
But Jesus said :
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:7-8
Clearly He is warning us here against both doctrine and the tradition of men.
The belief in good and evil is the cause of sin. How do we know this?
1 God warned Adam against it.
2 Immediately after partaking of it Adam acquired a sinful nature.
Jesus taught us to resist not evil, to forgive, and to love even our enemies; That we may be the children of Our Father which is in heaven. (SEE Matthew 5:38-47)
In others words this the nature of our Father and by doing so we become more like Him.
You said:
“Furthermore, I believe the Gospel, that God so loved the world He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, who was both 100% man and 100% God concurrently, to die on the cross in our place for our sins.”
Sorry my brother this is not the Gospel.
The Gospel is: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Whosoever believeth in him......not whosoever believeth He died on the cross for their sins.
Jesus said:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Matthew 12:31KJV)
God forgives us of our sin but God cannot forgive the cause of sin; “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost”.... “the sinful nature.”
Jesus died on the cross so that whosoever believeth in him can be saved from the cause of sin and shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Ted C
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08/13/2012 10:26 |
So, was the Apostle Paul advancing the teaching of men when he said (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"?
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TRWord
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08/13/2012 14:43 |
The statement that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Cor. 15:3 ) can be interpreted to mean that He died in our place but you’ll have to ignore a multitude of scripture to do so. You understanding is being shaped by the doctrine you believe and not by the scriptures.
The prophet Isaiah said:
Is. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
In other words we are not suppose to look for a verse of scripture that seems to agree with what we believe. We have to consider all scripture to understand what is being said.
Jesus said:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28KJV)
Under the old understanding “the old testament” we knew God as wrath and vengeance and we believed that blood had to be shed for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus came to give a new image of the Father that of love and forgiveness. By declaring that His blood is of the new testament He is alerting us here that His blood was shed under the new understanding.
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. (Matthew 9:2KJV)
The scribes and the Pharisees believed that a blood sacrifice had to be offered for the forgiveness of sin and they were very disturbed when they heard Jesus saying; “Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.”
The scribes were upset and said; This man blasphemeth.
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew 9:12-13KJV)
But go ye and learn what that meaneth I will have mercy and not sacrifice: Is a comment that Jesus made to the scribes more than once trying to tell them that God’s grace comes through His mercy and not by sacrifice.
With the sacrifice being such a prominent part of the old understanding. Jesus recognized that the shedding of His blood might be misunderstood.
Using the parable of “new cloth unto an old garment” and “new wine in old bottles” He emphasized the incompatibility between the old understanding and the new and He commanded us not to mix the two.
No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. (Matthew 9:16-17KJV)
Also using the parable of the good shepherd (John 10:1-18) Jesus characterizes His message as the door of the sheep and all that came before Him; “the old covenant” as thieves and robbers.
I could go on.
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Bibleman
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08/17/2012 15:06 |
ahh...you are speaking in pictures, TRW. How would you interpret, specifically, Ted's question from 1 Corinthians 15:1 - 4? I hate to say it, but you lost me with that last post.
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TRWord
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08/17/2012 23:05 |
What is Paul talking about here: 1 Corinthians 15th Chapter. Ted has isolated verses 1-4 because they seem to support the idea that: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” means that Jesus Christ was a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin as understood in the old testament. This is the old understanding or old covenant before Jesus revealed the true nature of God as love and forgiveness.
Baptism and repentance is suppose to signify; that we are getting rid of the old testament understanding and making way for a new one. (SEE Luke 3:3-4) The old covenant is incompatible with the new, so we must progress from one to the other, and not possess both at the same time. (SEE Matthew 9:16-17)
Jesus taught us to forgive and to love even our enemies. (SEE Matthew 5:39-47)
Why?
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matt. 5:45KJV)
In other words so that we may be more like him.
The old covenant understanding of; “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” is incompatible with the TRUTH or the true nature of God as revealed by Jesus Christ.
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32KJV)
To make a clear distinction between the new testament understanding of; “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” from the old testament understanding, Jesus said:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28KJV)
Jesus died to put sins in remission, to remove it’s cause.
You’ll note that the old understanding is also incompatible with what the Jesus is teaching here:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Matthew 12:31KJV)
Under the new understanding we are not trying to please God through obedience to the law but through faith in Christ’s Word. 1 Corinthians 15th Chapter, Paul is preaching a risen Christ and he making the point that this was the proof of our faith.
Faith in what?
Faith in what He taught.
What did He teach?
He taught us the true nature of God:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24KJV)
He revealed “the belief in good and evil” as the cause of sin and blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. He taught us to resist not evil (SEE Matthew 5:38-40) and He demonstrated it on His way to the cross. He could have summoned the power of heaven but did not resist.
And through His death and resurrection Jesus Christ demonstrated His power over death, “the proof of the supremacy of spirit over the flesh,” (SEE John 10:17-18 & Romans 8:11) and He also supplied “the proof that He was, whom He said He was.” (SEE Matthew 12:39-40)
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Ted C
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08/18/2012 19:58 |
So, TRWord, how do you respond to the passage of Hebrews 9:15-10:31? It explains in very clear terms the relationship of the Old Testament understanding to the New Testament one, and underscores the plain meaning 1 Corinthians 15:3 that Jesus Christ was a literal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin:
"For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.' And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, 'Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body You have prepared for Me; in whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. Then I said, "Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."' After saying above, 'Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them' (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, 'Behold, I have come to do Your will.' He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, and on their mind I will write them,' He then says, 'And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.' And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
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TRWord
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08/19/2012 15:29 |
Ted You asked:
So, TRWord, how do you respond to the passage of Hebrews 9:15-10:31? It explains in very clear terms the relationship of the Old Testament understanding to the New Testament one, and underscores the plain meaning 1 Corinthians 15:3 that Jesus Christ was a literal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin:
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Your error again is; you are using Paul’s letters to support your doctrinal belief instead of using the scriptures in it’s entirety to gain a perfect understanding.
Hebrews 9:15-10:31; Paul is speaking to the Hebrews. The belief that a blood sacrifice had to be offered for the forgiveness of sin is at the heart of their tradition. If Jesus Christ was as you said; “a literal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin:” Paul might have had trouble explaining this to the Ephesians, the Romans or the Thessalonians but not to the Hebrews, this was their tradition. But obviously Paul is struggling here to explain something that they are having great difficulty understanding.
The Apostle John also made a point to show that the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: a person from the same tradition did not understand what Jesus meant when He said:
“Ye must be born again.”
Even though Nicodemus obviously was making quite an effort to do so.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
This discrepancy between the old Hebrew understanding and what Jesus taught exist even to today. Notice that many describe them self as “Born Again Christians,” but do they resemble Jesus’s description of he who is born of the spirit?
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8KJV)
Clearly Jesus is describing someone who is no longer within the boundaries of human understanding. Jesus is trying here to explain that there are two states of being, one that can only know the things of the flesh and another that is not confined to the flesh but can also know the things of God through the spirit.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Today believing in “the doctrine of substitutionary atonement” is seen as being born again but Jesus warned us against following the tradition of men and exchanging His teaching for doctrine, which He called the commandments of men, because if we do, we worship Him in vain.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. (Mark 7:7-8KJV)
Paul letters support “the teaching of Jesus Christ.” Notice what He is saying here of the natural man: that state of being that can only know the things of the flesh.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14KJV)
Jesus Christ is not a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. God sacrificed His Son as “the way” to nullify the cause of sin and to reconcile us unto Himself.
As Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice, God offered up His Son Jesus Christ as a sacrifice. This is what Paul is saying here; that the pattern is maintained between the earthly and the heavenly but the heavenly are better sacrifices.
Heb. 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Jesus Christ is God’s Word fulfilled. The promise that one would come to deliver us from our sins.
God is “All knowing.”
God knew that Adam would err even before He created him, God was not shocked or surprised. The coming of Jesus Christ was God’s plan from the beginning.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus Christ came to show us “the way” to life. To teach us that “the spirit is supreme over the things of the earth” and to reveal that “the belief in good and evil” is the cause of sin.
He taught us how not to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost by not resisting evil and thereby denying it it’s power. He then demonstrated this on the way to the cross, and through His death and resurrection He demonstrated the power of Spirit over the things of the earth.
Paul said it this way:
Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus is “the way” and they that heed His teaching are called His disciples it was at Antioch that His disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Jesus came to show us “the way.”
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
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