|
|
Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
| |
TRWord
|
09/01/2012 16:29 |
John
You said:
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28KJV)
But read it, his blood was shed for many for the remission of sins. Simplified - the blood of Jesus covered my sins and took them away.”
=======================
It says the remission of sins not the forgiveness of sin. You are interpreting as the forgiveness of sins because you have place your faith in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement and not in the Word of the Lord. Jesus taught that: “All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:”
GOD FORGIVES US AND HE NEEDS NO PAYMENT TO DO SO.
The thing that damns us is “our sinful nature” this is what has to be removed. Jesus came to remove “our sinful nature” but we cannot see this as long as we believe He was a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.
Notice He said: For this is my blood of the new testament.
WHY?
To make a clear distinction between His blood, and the blood of the old testament.
In the old testament blood was shed for the forgiveness of sin. His blood was shed for the remission of sins in other words to stop sin by removing the cause of sin.
|
| |
Davidwayne Lackey
|
09/01/2012 21:55 |
TRW in the original Greek it is forgive. Remission and forgive are the same thing.
Mat 26:28 for this is My blood, which confirms the covenant between God and His people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many.
|
| |
TRWord
|
09/02/2012 12:14 |
Davidwayne
Peter asked the Lord how many times should I forgive a brother that has sinned against me and the Lord told him until seventy times seven. In other words there must be no limit to our forgiveness.
Matt. 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matt. 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
If our forgiveness must be limitless are you saying that you believe that our Father’s is any less.
Jesus said:
Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matt. 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Notice our heavenly Father does not need a payment for the forgiveness of sin all He needs is that you be as forgiving as He is.
The scripture says: “that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God that we must be justified by faith.”
Faith in whom or faith in what?
Faith in Christ.
Is faith in Christ the belief in a doctrine that says He died on the cross for our sins, or is it faith in what He said and what He commanded.
God forgives us of our sins and until we accept that we will be unable to see what He cannot forgive which is what Jesus Christ went to the cross to save us from.
Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
|
| |
Davidwayne Lackey
|
09/02/2012 19:50 |
TRW,
Actually there is a limit to forgiveness. In both the Old and New Testament there are examples of this. God hardened Pharaohs heart so he would not repent and be forgiven. God knew of course that Pharaoh would never repent. God knows the same thing about everyone. There are in fact those who were born to die. We however do not know who is born to die so we are not to make that judgment by not forgiving since we are not God who can see all things from beginning to end. Also we are to follow Jesus' example to forgive as He did on the cross for all those who were persecuting Him with extreme prejudice. The admonition to forgive or not to be forgiven is directly linked to what Jesus taught and did and by doing what He taught we are following Him. This however has everything to do with the atoning blood of Jesus that is taught by both Old and New Testaments.
Isa 53:4 Yet it was our weaknesses He carried; it was our sorrows that weighed Him down. And we thought His troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for His own sins!
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.
Isa 53:6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on Him the sins of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet He never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, He did not open His mouth.
Isa 53:8 Unjustly condemned, He was led away. No one cared that He died without descendants, that His life was cut short in midstream. But He was struck down for the rebellion of My people.
Isa 53:9 He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But He was buried like a criminal; He was put in a rich man's grave.
Isa 53:10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush Him and cause Him grief. Yet when His life is made an offering for sin, He will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's good plan will prosper in His hands.
Isa 53:11 When He sees all that is accomplished by His anguish, He will be satisfied. And because of His experience, My righteous Servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for He will bear all their sins.
Isa 53:12 I will give Him the honors of a victorious soldier, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.
With these passages TRW it is abundantly clear that Jesus died on the cross to bear all our sins for us so we can be saved. Jesus was an offering for sin for all ( 53:7 ). This is the Doctrine of The Bible written by inspiration of The Holy Spirit, not the Doctrine of man.
|
| |
TRWord
|
09/03/2012 06:01 |
Davidwayne
You have isolated this portion of scripture because it seems to support the doctrine you believe.
You are quoting the prophet Isaiah and at the same time ignoring what he said about interpreting the scripture: that precept must be upon precept and line must be upon line and we should not conclude from one portion of scripture but from all of it.
Is. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
While this portion of scripture seems to support your doctrine Jesus refutes the belief that God needed a payment for the forgiveness of sin.
Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
But Paul warned us that the god of this world would seek to hide the gospel.
2 Cor. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jesus never taught His disciples this doctrine in fact no one believed this doctrine until Constantine I came to power in 313 and legalized Christianity.
The purpose of this doctrine was then and still is now to blind the minds of those that will not accept the word of the Lord.
|
| |
Davidwayne Lackey
|
09/03/2012 21:34 |
TRW
The 53rd chapter of Isaiah is far from an isolated example of Jesus laying down his life for us as a sacrifice. It is just one of the more direct matter of fact examples laid down in irrefutable language. A language so clear you can come up with no other conclusion.
Paul talked about the sacrifice of Jesus being the propitiation, a once and for all sacrifice for sins for which Jesus died once. Every time someone wanted to atone for sin they had to sacrifice an animal on the alter. Jesus sacrificed Himself once for all time so no more sacrifice will ever be needed.
Rom 3:23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.
Rom 3:24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when He freed us from the penalty for our sins.
Rom 3:25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed His life, shedding His blood.
This Paul taught 250 years before Constantine so you cannot lay this doctrine at Constantine's door. The blood atonement was doctrine over 2 thousand years before Constantine in fact and written in The Old Testament as far back and before Abraham.
Matt 12:31 talks about what can be forgiven and what can not be forgiven. It had nothing to do with the blood atonement of Jesus. When you accused me of isolating Scripture because it seemed to support the doctrine I believe you are going to have to look into the mirror. This is exactly what you have done with Matt 12:31. This is an isolated piece of Scripture taken completely out of context that does not at all relate to the blood atonement called for in The Old Testament and fulfilled by Jesus in the New. It neither confirms or denies any aspect of blood atonement or sacrifice and is completely irrelevant.
You quoted 2 Cor 4:3, But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.
I would caution you in how you throw scripture around TRW. You have consistently inferred in the last couple or years now that I and others are lost and blaspheme The Holy Spirit and we follow the god of this world. A god I would remind you , you profess not to believe in.
What is in your opinion The Gospel?
|
| |
TRWord
|
09/03/2012 22:56 |
The gospel is faith in the infallible Word of God given by our savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught His disciples the gospel of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of Heaven;
“A new state of being, free from Adam’s transgression, (the partaking of the knowledge of good and evil) and it’s consequence of death.”
Christians today believe that the kingdom of heaven is a place to which persons who accept Jesus as their Savior will go when they die.
Matthew 13:24-33 and 44-52 Jesus uses seven parables to illustrate the kingdom of heaven. In no instance did he imply it was a place. In fact Jesus told us exactly where the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God is, and he also said it’s not “Lo here! or lo there” to emphasize that it’s not a place.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
To understand the gospel we have to understand man’s journey. First his fall from grace through Adam, his obedience through the law of Moses and his return to grace through Jesus Christ.
The Gospel is the good news of the return to grace.
Truth; “the true relationship between God and man,” as demonstrated by Jesus Christ is unchangeable, but man’s ability to accept the Truth has been by progressive steps.
Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:”
This meant that man was now ready for the next step in the journey. The revelation of the kingdom of God.
“repent ye, ”
This is the preparation for the next step. This preparation was the mission of John the Baptist.
The process of letting go of the old understanding of identifying with the flesh and a taking hold or immersing ourselves in the new understanding that we are spiritual beings which is necessary to receive the teaching of Jesus Christ. Without this transformation we misinterpret repentance as feeling sorry for our sins and baptism becomes an empty ritual of immersing ourselves in water.
This is what Jesus is speaking about here:
Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
This is also what Paul is speaking about here as well:
Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal. 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal. 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal. 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
In both cases we are being told to cast out the old to make way for the new.
“and believe the gospel.”
The gospel is the revelation of Jesus Christ of the Oneness of God and of our true identity as spirit.
This is why He said that the first step is; “Ye must be born again.”
Many describe themselves as “Born Again Christians,” but do we resemble Jesus’s description of he who is born of the spirit?
John 3:8KJV The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Clearly Jesus is describing someone who is no longer within the boundaries of human understanding.
Jesus is trying here to explain that there are two states of being, one that can only know the things of the flesh and another that is not confined to the flesh but can also know the things of God through the spirit.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus mission was to free us from “the belief in good and evil” and to demonstrate the supremacy of spirit over “the things of the flesh.”
So He taught us not to resist evil. (SEE Matthew 5:38-40) If we resist not evil, resolute in the belief that it has no power over us, then we affirm that God is the only power; The Almighty. The scripture says, then heaven rejoices; “Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth:”
Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Heaven rejoices because we are finally free of “the belief in good and evil.”
It’s important to note that Jesus did not teach us only through His words, He also demonstrated His teaching through His works and actions. Example: He taught us not to resist evil and He then demonstrated it on the way to the cross.
For many who believe in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the question is; Then why Jesus had to die?
As much as Jesus taught and demonstrated during His life, there were still those things that He could only demonstrate through His death and resurrection.
Through His death and resurrection He demonstrated His power over death, “the proof of the supremacy of spirit over the flesh,” (SEE John 10:17-18 & Romans 8:11)
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
His death and resurrection also supplied “the proof that He was, whom He said He was.”
Matt. 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Matt. 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
|
| |
Catholica
|
09/04/2012 09:46 |
Here is evidence far prior to Constantine, from the Apostle Peter, that the text of Isaiah 53 was referring to Jesus, as understood by the apostles:
Compare:
1 Peter 2
22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
Isaiah 53
9 He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone.
Compare:
1 Peter 2
23 When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.
Isaiah 53
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet He never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, He did not open His mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned, He was led away. No one cared that He died without descendants, that His life was cut short in midstream. But He was struck down for the rebellion of My people.
Compare:
1 Peter 2
24 He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Isaiah 53
4 Yet it was our weaknesses He carried; it was our sorrows that weighed Him down. And we thought His troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for His own sins!
5 But He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on Him the sins of us all.
The rest of the suffering servant story:
Isaiah 53
10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush Him and cause Him grief. Yet when His life is made an offering for sin, He will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's good plan will prosper in His hands.
11 When He sees all that is accomplished by His anguish, He will be satisfied. And because of His experience, My righteous Servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for He will bear all their sins.
12 I will give Him the honors of a victorious soldier, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.
Peter is CLEARLY connecting Jesus to Isaiah's prophect of this suffering servant. So it is not true that DavidWayne has "isolated this portion of scripture because it seems to support the doctrine you believe." According to the *apostle Peter*, this passage of scripture actually does directly support the truth that DavidWayne and Christians since the time of Christ have believed.
|
| |
John T
|
09/04/2012 15:16 |
Here's the word "remission":
G859 — Strong
aphesis
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.
The word seems to be used interchangably with forgiveness, see:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G859
Some interesting usage of the word that prove you wrong:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness859 of sins :
It seems here that the forgiveness (G859=remission) is tied to Jesus blood.
It's even more clear here:
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission 859.
There they use exactly the same word - remission, and state that it requires shedding of blood. Jesus' blood if you read the entire book.
Can't get more clear than that.
And that wasn't some crazy reading of the Bible, that was a standard concordance.
Be blessed, through the blood of Jesus,
John
|
| |
TRWord
|
09/04/2012 16:15 |
John
Now is there anything more clear than this:
Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Forgiveness for sins has already been given. What remains is something that forgiveness cannot fix “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.”
As long as you continue to believe that Jesus suffering and His shed blood was for the forgiveness of sin the gospel will be hidden from you.
It’s important for you to note that you have sought an understanding of the faith everywhere else but His word.
|
(page
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11)
|
