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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ted C
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09/17/2012 00:39 |
TRWord,
God's warning wasn't, "you shall be as gods". God's warning was, "you will surely die."
In the next chapter after God says, "you will surely die," the serpent essentially calls God a liar by directly contradicting Him. And the serpent says this in the same sentence as when he says, "you will surely be as God". The full sentence is, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The Hebrew word for God that the serpent is using is "Elohiym" (Strong's H430) which is God's primary name for Himself in the Old Testament.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=nasb
The word Elohiym occurs 2606 times in the Old Testament and every use of the word before this point in Genesis is God referring to Himself. For example in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohiym created the heavens and the earth."
So taking all of these Scriptures into account, the serpent's message was that (paraphrase), "by contradicting what God says and eating the forbidden fruit, you, a mere man, can become God!"
This sounds like exactly what you are saying a few messages before this when you say, "the Father, [Jesus] and us are all one." It sounds like you are teaching that we are the same essence as God, which lines up with what the serpent said . However it contradicts what God says in Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.'"
So do you stand by the teaching that God is a liar and the serpent is telling the truth?
Genesis 2:16,17 "The Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.'"
Genesis 3:4,5 "The serpent said to the woman, 'You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'”
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TRWord
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09/17/2012 06:07 |
Ted
I’m beginning to get a handle of why you and I can never communicate. The first problem is you keep jumping from one thing to another so I never know where you are at any given moment. In your last post you were referring to what was written in Genesis 3:5 now this post you are referring to what is written in Genesis 2:17
The next problem is the fact that since we are using different Bible versions you and I sometimes are reading something that is totally different.
Example
Genesis 3:5 KJV For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:5 NIV “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Notice the difference.
This is why I use the KJV it seems that many of these newer versions in an effort to make the Bible more readable have changes where two person using two different versions are just not reading the same thing.
In addition since you obviously interpret the scripture by the letter and not by the spirit our understandings are quite different.
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Ted C
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09/17/2012 08:46 |
Even in the King James version, the serpent was contradicting God. It's still the Hebrew word Elohiym (Strongs H430) in the serpent's statement was, "ye shall be as gods." And the serpent still says, "Ye shall not surely die".
So you are still teaching that God lied and that the serpent is telling the truth.
Remember,
2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
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Ted C
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09/17/2012 08:48 |
Whoops ued New King James instead of King James on the second one. King James Numbers 23:19 (same thing) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
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TRWord
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09/17/2012 16:05 |
Ted
You humor me. I’m always amazed at what you come up with each time.
Now I’m teaching that God lied and that the serpent is telling the truth. If you got this from what I said I can only conclude that you are kidding.
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Ted C
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09/17/2012 23:05 |
TRWord,
You said:
"Knowing good and evil separated us from God; the scripture says 'we are as gods.'
Gen. 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We are as gods because we see ourselves as beings separate and apart from God. When we are no longer one with God or in the paradise of God we lose the opportunity to partake of the tree of life."
The problem is that your quote from Genesis 3:5 is, according to the rest of Scripture, a lie. When man sinned against God he did not become like God (Elohiym) as the serpent said. Rather, man died, exactly like God said.
So your teaching that "We are as gods" is a lie.
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TRWord
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09/18/2012 06:54 |
Ted
This is what I said:
“Knowing good and evil separated us from God; the scripture says “we are as gods.”
Gen. 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We are as gods because we see ourselves as beings separate and apart from God. When we are no longer one with God or in the paradise of God we lose the opportunity to partake of the tree of life.
Adam transgression separated us from God.
It drove us out of the garden and denied us the opportunity to partake of the tree of life.”
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Remember the discussion is about knowing good and evil. How knowing good and evil separated us from God. This is what the scripture is saying when it says we are as gods.
The scripture is explaining what happens to us when we begin to know good and evil.
It further explains that the consequence of being as gods was we were driven out of the garden and we lost the opportunity to partake of the tree of life.
In other words the consequence was death.
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You said:
“The problem is that your quote from Genesis 3:5 is, according to the rest of Scripture, a lie. When man sinned against God he did not become like God (Elohiym) as the serpent said. Rather, man died, exactly like God said.
So your teaching that "We are as gods" is a lie
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The question is how could anyone read what I said and come up with what you are saying here.
Why?
Because you are still saying “when man sinned against God.” Some where in the back of your mind there is still an apple or a forbidden fruit.
Consequently you fail to understand that this is where the scripture is trying to explain to you how sin came into the world.
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John T
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09/18/2012 15:58 |
The discussion is NOT about "knowing good and evil". Sin separates us from God. Jesus knew about good and evil and yet never sinned.
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TRWord
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09/18/2012 16:22 |
John
Then why did God warn Adam against the knowledge of good and evil saying: “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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John T
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09/18/2012 17:40 |
God asked for Adam's obedience, and he failed the test. Fairly simple. Why did Jesus say he saw Satan fall from heaven if there is no evil TRWord? Why did Jesus cast demons out of the man? Why did Jesus get angry at the practices of the money changers in the temple? How can you say that evil doesn't exist? Take a look around you.
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