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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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09/20/2012 05:02 |
Catholica
Making statements that a person is not ready to believe makes it more difficult to show them that they are not believing God and that this is the reason why they are being deceived.
The scriptures plainly shows that Jesus had to be very careful of what statements He made.
John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
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Catholica
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09/20/2012 10:16 |
TRWord,
No doubt that Jesus used tact when he spoke to people and spoke to them in whatever way would best help them to be saved while still requiring faith. However there is a difference between how Jesus used tact and what has just happened here.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jesus' answer does not imply that he was not the Messiah, which He is. The answer you gave implied that you believe in evil, which you don't. Jesus stated that he "told (them)". It is clear from the context that though Jesus did not tell them /directly/, the Jews /should/ have been able to see that Jesus was the fulfillment of that anticipated Messiah, through their faith and knowledge of what was expected of the Messiah, and the works that they saw Jesus do.
Jesus ends by saying that it is the works that he (did) in His Father's name *bear witness* of Him. Evil works bear witness to the existence of evil, just as the works of Jesus bore witness to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.
To disbelieve in evil, one has to perform severe mental gymnastics, because all of reality points to the existence of evil. There is nothing in the human experience in all of recorded history that bears witness to the idea that evil does not exist, and nearly everything in recorded history that bears witness to the idea that evil does exist.
Matthew 12
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
You may struggle against the belief that evil exists, but deep down you will always know that it does exist because the acts of all of human history bear witness to it. And the Bible also bears witness to it. And the serpent clearly was doing an evil thing before anyone has partaken in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Evil preceded the partaking in the tree.
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TRWord
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09/20/2012 16:30 |
Catholica said:
“Evil preceded the partaking in the tree.”
Of course this is ridiculous. For a multitude of reasons. It’s in direct contradiction to what God said and Catholica said this because he is deceived in exactly the same manner as Adam was.
Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
All our problems come from us not believing God. God said that everything He made was very good so evil could not have preceded Adam’s transgression
because God said so.
God warned Adam against “knowing good and evil” but most of us have refused to accepted that “knowing good and evil” is the cause of our downfall.
This is God’s Universe and He is explaining to us how things work. We don’t have to understand we just have to accept what He said.
Here is where Catholica and Adam were deceived. They believed that the serpent had to be evil, disobeying God’s command against “knowing good and evil.”
The serpent is temptation which caused Adam to question God's word and not to heed His warning. The serpent could not be evil because
there could not have been any evil in the paradise of God; "the Garden of Eden."
Now faith has come in the person of Jesus Christ we are again call upon to believe God even if it’s the absolute opposite to what we see.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
We the children of faith are called upon to judge not by what we see but judge according to what God said.
2 Cor. 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
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Catholica
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09/20/2012 17:31 |
TRWord, you wrote:
"It’s in direct contradiction to what God said"
There is no contradiction, but rather a simple explanation. The devil, also known as Satan, was created good by God, as all angels were. Angels were at one time given an opportunity to choose to serve God or not. Some chose not to, and they were cast out of heaven. The chief of those was Satan himself.
The serpent in the garden of Eden is also referred to in Revelation, and we know that this "serpent" is not an allegory for temptation as you state because of this.
Revelation 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
If the serpent is an allegory for temptation, then apparently temptation existed in heaven for a time before being cast out. How can that make any sense?
This passage contradicts any claim that you have to say that "there could not have been any evil in the paradise of God". And who are these "angels" who fought with Satan against Michael and his "angels"? More allegories?
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Does an angel "bind temptation" for a thousand years? I don't understand. This angel sounds more powerful than Jesus. After all (if I understand you right) in your theology, Jesus simply *taught* us that we have to reject belief in good and evil. But this angel apparently is capable of *eliminating temptation in the first place*.
TRWord wrote:
"There could be no evil in the paradise of God".
That is your premise, now you have to demonstrate why your premise is reasonable, which will require other reasonable premises.
And I am certain that there is a false premise behind this first premise as well, that being that there can't be evil or else God is not almighty. Actually it is because God is almighty that evil doesn't threaten Him. He allows evil to exist because 1) it doesn't threaten his sovereign power and 2) because it is the product of free will, without which we are incapable of love, and 3) because we were created to love Him: created in His image, and God is Love, and 4) because even through evil acts, God can and does affect a greater good for those who love him.
TRWord wrote:
"Now faith has come in the person of Jesus Christ we are again call upon to believe God even if it’s the absolute opposite to what we see."
John 7:24 ripped out of context, 2 Cor. 5:7 ripped out of context. Believe "God" even if it is contradictory to what we see? With regard to the existence of evil, that's not what Jesus says.
Matthew 12
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
A tree is known by it's fruit. An evil man (Jesus' words - man can be "evil") brings forth evil things. Jesus is telling us that when we see evil, it tells us something: that this or that certain man is evil. These are the words of Jesus, who you have been taught to believe came to teach us to deny the existence of evil. Yet here Jesus is, explaining exactly how to discern evil's existence.
This "rejection of the belief in evil" is not why Jesus came, and this "gospel" that you have been taught is not true. Your heart knows that evil exists, and you will never shake it. Even Jesus confesses the reality of evil. Therefore it is not a sin to do so, certainly not the unforgiveable sin. Did Jesus commit the unforgiveable sin? Read Matthew 12:33-35 again... And this is immediately after proclaiming what the unforgiveable sin was in Matthew 12:32.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/20/2012 23:13 |
TRW,
The Gospel(good news), strait for the mouth of Paul:
1Co 15:1 Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters, of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it.
1Co 15:2 It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.
1Co 15:3 I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
1Co 15:4 He was buried, and He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.
Notice TRW that it says Christ died for our sins. He did not say He died to save us for our belief in good and evil. No where in Scripture does it says this or even implies it.
How to have eternal life:
1Jn 5:3 Loving God means keeping His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.
1Jn 5:4 For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.
1Jn 5:5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn 5:6 And Jesus Christ was revealed as God's Son by His baptism in water and by shedding His blood on the cross—not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit, who is truth, confirms it with His testimony.
1Jn 5:7 So we have these three witnesses [in heaven—the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth]—
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree.
1Jn 5:9 Since we believe human testimony, surely we can believe the greater testimony that comes from God. And God has testified about His Son.
1Jn 5:10 All who believe in the Son of God know in their hearts that this testimony is true. Those who don't believe this are actually calling God a liar because they don't believe what God has testified about His Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God's Son does not have life.
1Jn 5:13 I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.
Pay particular attention to 1 John 5:6 where it confirms Jesus shed his blood on the cross. 5:10 through 5:13 confirms that it is believing in the name of the Son Jesus that you mat know you have eternal life. It is believing in the Son not good and evil that saves you. We achieve this victory over death through faith, not the unbelief in good and evil but faith that Jesus is the Son of God.
Php 1:27 Above all, you must live as citizens of heaven, conducting yourselves in a manner worthy of the Good News about Christ. Then, whether I come and see you again or only hear about you, I will know that you are standing together with one spirit and one purpose, fighting together for the faith, which is the Good News.
Standing together with one spirit and one purpose. What does it mean to be one? This verse makes it clear it is to be standing as one for the faith. Just as Jesus and the Father is one so should we be. That is one in Spirit and purpose and faith.
Never does Jesus say He came to teach that sin is the belief in good and evil. By your reasoning that means Jesus committed the unpardonable sin.
You talk as if you have a special deeper truth that the rest of us have. That sentiment is also talked about in Scripture.
Rev 2:24 "But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching ('deeper truths,' as they call them—depths of Satan, actually). I will ask nothing more of you
Rev 2:25 except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come.
As you keep saying, precept upon precept. That is a knife that can cut both ways. There are deeper truths but none of those will contradict Scripture or deny the Gospel of Jesus. All of yours does. You have even denied your sin nature that even Paul admitted to and something we all have, even you have it TRW. Does that mean that you too have committed blasphemy against The Holy Spirit? Can God have oneness with sin nature?
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TRWord
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09/21/2012 05:25 |
Davidwayne
This is the gospel straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Notice it says “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” It does not say that whosoever believeth in what is said of Him.
You believe a doctrine that says He died for the forgiveness of sin and you continue to ignore what He said. Is this believing in Him?
You continually leap frog the words of Jesus Christ and head to Paul’s letters because they seem to confirm the doctrine you believe.
Paul says that Jesus died for our sin and you interpret it to mean that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin because you refuse to believe Jesus Christ.
Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
God warned Adam against “knowing good and evil” and said that the consequence of “knowing good and evil” is death. But you would not accept this either.
The scripture plainly speak of two trees, it explains that the consequence of partaking of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is death because it denies us the opportunity to partake of the tree of life.
Then when faith comes through Jesus Christ the opportunity to partake of the tree of life is regained to those that overcometh.
Rev. 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
To him that overcometh what?......... faith is overcoming what we see and hear and instead believing what God says.
2 Cor. 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
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TRWord
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09/21/2012 21:55 |
Catholica
You are using Revelation 12:7-9 to say that there was a war in heaven and that the Devil and his angels were cast out of heaven out into the earth.
How could you miss this so completely?
Revelation Chapter 12 is John’s vision of the story of salvation.
Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev. 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The child spoken of here is Christ.
Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Notice John is speaking of the stars of heaven. He is not speaking of “heaven” where our Father dwells.
Rev. 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
This is the coming of Christ.
Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev. 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The war in heaven is the deceiver’s battle against the “TRUTH.” Whenever the TRUTH is accepted the deceiver is no more.
Now this is a voice from heaven.
Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
I also think that it should be obvious to you that there could be no evil in the paradise of God. Notice the minute Adam began to “know good and evil” he was driven out of the garden, so it Adam was driven out how could you believe that an evil entity would be allowed to be there.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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09/21/2012 22:07 |
TRW, I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior. There is no other name under Heaven by which you can be saved. Saved from what? That is what the rest of Scripture expands on and teaches. You have admitted that you need all of scripture to understand and that it is precept on precept that we come to a deeper understanding. This is what I and others here have continually done. I have done it by reciting Paul, Peter, John as well as the other Gospel writers and the books of the Old Testament to clearly outline and explain the Doctrines discussed.
You say I have jumped over what Jesus said and I have not. John 3:16 is just one of many verses and I completely agree with and believe it with all I am. It is in fact the first verse of the Bible I ever memorized and remains as one of the most touching and important verses to me. I have known this verse for over 50 years, I am 57 as I type this response. I quote Paul and the others because what they say is just as Important and expands on what Jesus Himself taught while He was on Earth.
You conveniently deny the other verses posted and yet you say you believe in all of the Bible. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the light. I believe this and everything Jesus ever said. How can you say I do not believe in Jesus Christ?
The only way you can say that Jesus did not die to save us from our sins for which He shed his blood on the cross is to deny what the rest of Scripture says about Him.
And, you have to deny your own sin nature.
Do you deny your own sin nature?
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Ted C
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09/22/2012 00:33 |
The serpent was in the garden.
Genesis 3:4,5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
The serpent is evil. If him contradicting God in Gen 3:4,5 doesn't spell it out clearly enough, Revelation 12:19 does.
Revelation 12:19 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
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TRWord
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09/22/2012 06:39 |
Question Ted
Why didn’t God warn Adam against the serpent? Why instead He warned him against “knowing good and evil.”
Obviously “knowing good and evil” is the cause of our downfall.
By believing that there was evil in the garden already in the person of a lying serpent you are saying God is a liar.
The scripture made it clear that the serpent was made by God, so you believe that God made an evil serpent and then warned Adam against “knowing good and evil.”
Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
You focus on the serpent because you don’t believe God. The scripture has presented a picture of a talking serpent in a conversation with a woman and you are transfixed on this picture missing all else. The serpent represents whatever it was that caused Adam not to heed God’s warning against “knowing good and evil.”
By focusing on the serpent and not what God said you are being deceived just like Adam.
The scripture speaks of two trees; “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” and “the tree of life.” One tree leads to life while the consequence of the other is death. By partaking of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” Adam was driven out of the garden and then we were all unable to partake of “the tree of life” and the consequence what death.
You quoted Paul a couple of posts ago but obviously you don’t understand what Paul was saying.
Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Paul is explaining that sin is not imputed when there is no law but death reigned from Adam to Moses anyway because it’s not about the forgiveness of sin.
Death reign because we are unable to partake of the tree of life.
Jesus Christ came so we can again enter the garden “the paradise of God” so we can partake of “the tree of life,” if we overcometh. If we heed God’s warning against “knowing good and evil.”
As Jesus said: “He that hath an ear, let him hear.”
Rev. 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
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