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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Gay Marriage in Maine
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I'm struggling with this...the vote is approaching, and I have gay friends who I love. I feel strongly that God ordained marriage between a man and a woman, and anything else is not marriage. The homosexual lifestyle is not spoken well of in the Bible, and I have seen that it brings so many sorrows, but still I love my gay friends so much, and I know God adores them also. I'm in a seminary that is open and affirming, and yet I am not in agreement that this lifestyle is ordained or blessed by God. How can I be loving and non-judgmental and still hold to my beliefs? I have felt God tell me to stand firm, and it breaks my heart, and I know He loves them as much as I do! I need some insight.
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Jules:) 10/02/2012 19:37 |
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Craig from Illinois
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10/02/2012 23:13 |
My response is in respect to Galatians 5:19-21
Probably the best way to be loving and non-judgmental is to serve the gay community in love and non-judgmental action. Do you really BELIEVE that God loves them as much as you do? Walking by the Spirit vs. Walking by the flesh is very distinctive. Unfortunately our human nature (flesh) will cloud even the most clear revelation of whom our heart follow.
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Catholica
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10/03/2012 07:11 |
Hi Jules,
This is obviously a sensitive topic. Have you discerned for yourself yet the struggle ahead of you, being in a seminary such as this? Your heart is correct in not wanting to support this lifestyle. Even apart from any Bible verses about it, we know that it is destructive to those people who practice it, and once they get involved in it, they need all the support they can to escape it and the destruction it causes them.
God's law are not arbitrary. He makes them because he loves us and doesn't want us to destroy ourselves. We can trust in God when he makes such laws because we know He wants what is best for us. If we think that we know what is best for another person and it is contrary to God's law, then we are wrong.
The problem is that it seems our whole culture is against us, seemingly more secular every day.
Affirming so-called "gay marriage" is in effect trapping people in a relationship that presupposes that the participants take part in acts that God abhors. It is also damaging to children who end up in these families. There is a good study out called the Regenerus study, http://www.familystructurestudies.com/ where a person can see exactly how these new family structures affect the children raised in them.
God calls us to treat all human's with equal dignity because of the simple reason that He created them. You don't need to focus on what your friend does in his spare time. It is secular culture who defines people as "homosexual", not God. There is no gene for homosexuality, and God does not "create anyone homosexual" any more than does He create anyone who has a penchant for any other kind of sin. Some people become predisposed to one sin more than others for various reasons, but that does not mean that we affirm them.
Your friend will be best served by the witness of you loving him despite the fact that he knows that you don't approve of his sin. Through that, you become like Jesus to him, and you can know that Jesus will work through you most effectively if you do just that.
God Bless you.
André
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Helga
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10/03/2012 22:46 |
Andre, thank you for the wise words.
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Craig from Illinois
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10/05/2012 09:05 |
Jules, are you questioning how to vote one way and not appear to be unloving?
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Jules:)
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10/05/2012 10:58 |
I understand that the bible speaks of homosexual acts being an abomination. I see that God through creation has shown us how to be truly creative ourselves, and we truly are without excuse! I just have such a hard time with how Christians literally FOCUS on this, and create such horrible barriers between sin and salvation. I'm in my last seminary class, and I have come through with my faith in tact, but I also see things from a different perspective.
People are bullies. We like to focus in on others faults to distract from our own. It is not helpful to the cause of Christ! Craig, maybe? But I don't think so. I just truly believe God gave us free will, and we choose wrong every day, some more than others! Still He is faithful to bring us around to see it His way, at least those of us who belong to him, and I'm grateful for that. Jesus showed the woman at the well who she was, he showed her that he knew her! He still accepted what she offered him, (a drink of water)because he knew her heart. The life she was living did not matter to him. He still revealed himself to her! We as Christians sometimes reveal something other than Christ to those we have written off as unfaithful, or unclean.
When I began attending these classes at the Seminary, It was in conjunction with a private university that was offering a masters degree in Pastoral Counseling. My very first seminary class was a SHOCKER! I came from a Baptist/Assemblies of God background. I thought I was going to a Seminary that would have me studying the word and the law, which I LOVE, but what I discovered was a number of gay men and women that were so bullied and rejected in the world (especially by God's representatives) that that they decided to come to find God for themselves. Most were not and had never been Christians, (especially the women) although some had (mostly the men, interesting case study...) All of them had themes of rejection in their stories. It is heartbreaking. I remember that first day, I was blown away. The woman I'm thinking of from that day had never read the Bible, yet she wanted to be a minister...I know, I was horribly naive, I'm not any longer though, and I have new insight thanks to the whole surprise.
I was feeling particularly sad about conversations from class the day I posted this, and feeling so much that I wanted to somehow justify their need for affirmation.
Some may say they are wrong, but I say they are longing for love and acceptance, just like the rest of us. I guess I will leave it blank, and leave it up to God. Thanks for your comments!
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Catholica
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10/05/2012 16:48 |
In my state, a non-entry is the same as voting no. I don't know what the rules are in Maine.
It is something common to mankind that we are longing to be accepted. This is true for all people. That doesn't mean that we can in good conscience publicly endorse deviant lifestyles. Some people go to prostitutes and may consider that "love", but we don't call that marriage. Some people both love have sex with their own children. We don't call that marriage. Two old ladies may really love each other and would like to have certain rights. That is not marriage either.
As people of faith we believe that marriage has a specific purpose ordained by God for BOTH (not one or the other) the procreation of children and the mutual support of spouses. Gay people cannot produce children, and when they try, it is damaging to the children who deserve to be raised by their own mother and father. Anything other than that, we acknowledge as a society, and can confirm through scientific study, is deficient and harmful to children.
The only reason that government is involved in marriage is because marriage benefits society by creating financially stable families and healthy children. Gay relationships are not stable. For the most part, "fidelity" only involves emotional fidelity, and physical fidelity is not a part of the equation. Both spouses may have many partners over the course of their lives, and this is normal. This in itself creates a very unstable environment for children to be raised in.
What is worse is that, once your state says that marriage is between more than just one man and one woman, many things will change. Guaranteed, just like in Massachusetts, the public schools will be forced to start indoctrinating children into seeing gay marriages as normal. Sex education classes, which are done at a very tender age, will encourage students to determine their own "gender identity" and this is often stated as done through "experimentation". Worse, preaching God's truth about homosexual acts will be labeled as a hate crime, as it already is in Canada. This same truth is the only thing that can set people free from their sin.
Our society is based upon stable families. If you choose not to support true marriage, then you will witness the consequences and know that you were complicit in its effects. One last thing, is that most gay people don't even want to get married, they just want acceptance. But in countries where gay people can get married, they almost never do, and in countries where there is wide acceptance of the gay lifestyle, the rate of suicide is equally high.
Gay marriage will do nothing but defy God's will on Earth and turn our culture into upheaval, drawing us ever farther away from what God wants for all people, including people with same-sex attraction.
Matthew 19
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?"
4 He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female'
5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."
Marriage can only mean the one flesh union of one man and one woman, and Jesus reminds us that it was that way in the beginning. Jesus' sacrifice was in part to restore us to that initial friendship with God that Adam and Eve enjoyed, and in the garden there was only one kind of marriage, real marriage.
I could go on and on, I keep thinking of more stuff to write. I just have to add that children will have no concept of what it means that "God is Father" if they are raised with two mothers. Ok, wrapped up now.
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Jules:)
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10/05/2012 19:43 |
Well, I suppose we could go on and on... My only thought is that between my mother and father there were a total of 8 marriages for me to learn from. Seriously, the only reason I have been married for 23 years and i am happy is that Christ sought me and poured his grace on me! Our society is not based on stable families at all. That is why we are suffering as we are. I continue to pray about this, and also to trust in the mercy that Christ has always showed me:)
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Ted C
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10/08/2012 00:39 |
Jules,
I think what Andre said is excellent. Here are some additional thoughts of my own.
Being male or female, or white or black or whatever, is what a person is. I can take a DNA sample and barring a marrow transplant – and even that can be worked around – it will come up the same every time. Exercising sexuality on the other hand, is what a person does. Biblically there is no such thing as a heterosexual or a homosexual. There are only people, their gift of sexuality, and how they choose to exercise it. There are plenty of rules society expects people to adhere to in terms of how they express their sexuality, and no one would win in a court of law saying, “I’m genetically predisposed towards the very young,” or, “I’m genetically predisposed towards animals.” So why should someone think that in the singular case of same-sex attraction it is a genetic condition which is what people are, but think that in all other instances attraction is a choice of behavior? If sexual behavior is matter of unchangeable, undeniable genetic predisposition then all sexual behaviors (think about what that encompasses) have to fall under the umbrella of “being” and “identity”, and we cannot condemn anyone for any sexual act whatsoever. We’re talking about being and identity here, not consent. If the issue hinges on being rather than doing, consent has nothing to do with the equation. After all, in such a worldview, the person exercising their sexuality - regardless of the consent of the object or the form of expression - is simply being what they are.
As far as why not redefine societal norms, I believe it is because in the case of supposed same-sex marriage it is a political subtraction, not an addition: It’s not adding a new and clearly defined institution to society which can be embraced and honored or rejected on its own merits; rather marriage re-definition seeks to go down the path of causing an existing institution to be increasingly meaningless and undefined. Indeed, many (if not most) advocates of marriage redefinition are antagonistic towards marriage and openly want to eliminate or fundamentally redefine marriage, the family, gender and the sanctity of life.
I believe homosexual behavior is simply and only a sin. It is a sin which can lead to death, and regular fooling around or speeding and driving recklessly can do that as well. I don't believe in singling out or persecuting people based upon where they are legitimately at. I do believe in presenting the truth in love when there is a friendship and we've cared enough about a person for them to consider our position.
It sounds like you have an amazing heart and are in a great position to reach out to others in love. My prayers are with you for wisdom.
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