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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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The existence of evil
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I believe that the existence of real, pure evil is one of the greatest apologetics for the existence of God and the spiritual realm that there is. Man inherently knows what wrong and right is, and we could have no sense of this if (thank you C.S. Lewis) there was not a moral Lawgiver and a moral design to the universe. The fact that each one of us can recognize pure evil is a strong argument that pure good - i.e. Holiness, Our Creator - is real. No one can deny the existence of evil. We can't always see good in the universe, but we always recognize demonic, pure evil for what it is.
Regarding God, Luke 18:19b says, "No one is good except God alone." Psalm 100:5 says, "For the LORD is good; His lovingkindness is everlasting."
Regarding man, Psalm 14:1b says, "There is no one who does good." Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Regarding salvation, Isaiah 53:5,6 says, "But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." And John 3:16-21 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Romans 10:9,10 says, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." And 1 John 1:5-10 says, "This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
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Ted C 03/10/2011 14:43 |
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TRWord
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03/11/2011 04:52 |
Ted
Jesus taught;
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:43-44KJV)
Also notice that Paul said: “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”
What is clear is no man can know the Lord or accept His teaching without the Holy spirit.
This then leads us to the question can a man believe in the existence of evil and know the Holy spirit?
If you read Paul’s encounter on Mars' hill, (Acts 17:22-28)
Paul encountered these men in worship and perceived that they did not know God.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. (Acts 17:23KJV)
Paul then revealed God’s image saying this;
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Acts 17:28KJV)
This is the Truth that God is Omnipresent (the only presence), Omnipotent (the only power) and Omniscient (all knowing.)
Belief in the Oneness of God is belief in the Holy spirit, and the belief in anything other than God is sin against the Holy spirit.
This was Adam’s transgression which separated us from God and is the cause of sin.
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Calico
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03/11/2011 07:25 |
Adding a note here, just to get thread notifications.
:-)
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Ted C
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03/11/2011 09:34 |
TRWord, do you rely on Scriptures other than the Bible? If so, what writings do you consider to be authoritative and inspired?
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John T
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03/11/2011 11:42 |
TRWord are you saying there is no evil and that believing in evil is sin? The Bible talks many times about evil. There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve ate.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
If there is no evil TRWord, then what exactly are we asking for deliverance from? Adams sin was choosing to be like God, the same sin that Satan did. Rather than submitting to God, they chose to want to be God, which we cannot be. Satan wants to be equal to God, but he will never be. God is the creator, he is the created. God created the Angels and he created mankind.
I believe that one of the strategies of Satan is to try to get us humans to believe that there is no good and evil, that there aren't spiritual forces, powers and principalities that are unseen. If he can do that, they we will be blind to their power and we won't think to call on our Holy God to protect us, fight for us, set a hedge of protection around us, and help us to stand on his firm foundation.
Agreed Calico, this could be interesting,
Blessings!
John
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John T
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03/11/2011 17:46 |
A question I was thinking that leads from the thought that sin is the belief in good and evil. So is sin evil? Can a Christian do evil things? Can a Christian sin? I think the answer is absolutely yes -- we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/11/2011 17:59 |
TRW you said or quoted:
Belief in the Oneness of God is belief in the Holy spirit, and the belief in anything other than God is sin against the Holy spirit.
This you wrote to prove there is no evil or evil one.
Where did you find this or how did you come by this conclusion?
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Lanny Carlson
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03/11/2011 19:45 |
"The existence of evil"
This subject has been covered in this forum so many times,
and it seems to me that we are talking about two different things.
Certainly no one can deny the reality of EVIL.
In English, the word "evil" is "live" spelled backwards -
and it seems to me that this is a pretty good definition of evil.
Evil is in essence living life backwards,
using the good things of life in ways other than they were intended.
When sexual desire becomes lust, that's evil.
When healthy self-esteem becomes pride, that's evil.
When a healthy appetite becomes gluttony, that's evil.
Evil, in short, is a distorted good.
Very few would disagree with that.
I think the point of contention isn't over the reality of evil,
but over the existence of an evil, supernatural being,
usually called the devil or Satan.
This is a concept which is practically non-existent in the Old Testament.
The serpent in the story of the Garden of Eden was just that - a serpent.
And as we discussed at length last year, the "morning star" or "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-15
refers, not to a fallen angel, but to the king of Babylon.
The concept of Satan, or a supernatural embodiment of evil,
is more closely related to Zoroastrian dualism than to Judaism.
Furthermore, as I have suggested elsewhere,
a belief in an "evil one" can easily become a cop out,
as when Flip Wilson's Geraldine says, "the devil made me buy this dress!"
when in reality, Geraldine made herself - or allowed herself- to buy that dress.
And we see the same thing happening in the story of the Garden of Evil,
where Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the serpent.
(And while the writer uses the serpent as the source of the temptation,
I wonder what would have happened if there was no serpent in the story.
Wouldn't Eve eventually have noticed that the fruit was beautiful and tasty,
and eventually given in to her own desires and misused her free will?
Isn't that what we all do?)
Sin is the result of using our God-given free will
to do things which are not in keeping with God's will.
And this is the evil from which we ALL need to be delivered!
So - the existence of evil is undeniable,
but the existence of evil as a supernatural being
is something I have a hard time accepting,
other than as a metaphorical way of speaking of evil.
(Of course, we can all be instruments of evil
whenever we use our free will in an effort to get others
to misuse their free will.
When Peter tried to talk Jesus out of the way of the cross,
and Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan,"
he wasn't suggesting that Peter had somehow become a supernatural evil being -
he was recognizing Peter as one who was seeking to tempt Jesus
to misuse his free will and turn his back on God's will.)
Grace and Peace,
Lanny R. Carlson
P.S.
TRW, this is my own perspective,
and you and I don't always agree on a lot of things,
but does this come at all close to what you are trying to say?
Just wondering.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/11/2011 21:37 |
There is a lot written about Satan in both old and new Testaments. I'm posting just some of the many passages about Satan, also known as the Devil among other names. I don't believe Jesus went into the desert to be tempted by a concept which is what I understand you call both evil and Satan. I accept that evil by itself is a concept but that does not preclude a real Satan that epitomizes evil and therefore is known as the evil one.
Job 1:6 One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
Job 1:7 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on."
Job 1:8 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed My servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil."
Job 1:9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God.
Job 1:12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.
Job 2:1 One day the members of the heavenly court came again to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
Job 2:2 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on."
Job 2:3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed My servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged Me to harm him without cause."
Job 2:4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life.
Job 2:5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job 2:6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."
Job 2:7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.
Zec 3:1 Then the angel showed me Jeshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel's right hand, making accusations against Jeshua.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said to Satan, "I, the LORD, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire."
Mat 4:3 During that time the devil came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread."
Mat 4:4 But Jesus told Him, "No! The Scriptures say, 'People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Mat 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple,
Mat 4:6 and said, "If You are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, 'He will order His angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foot on a stone.'"
Mat 4:7 Jesus responded, "The Scriptures also say, 'You must not test the LORD your God.'"
Mat 4:8 Next the devil took Him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 "I will give it all to You," he said, "if You will kneel down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 "Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only Him.'"
Mat 4:11 Then the devil went away, and angels came and took care of Jesus.
Mar 1:12 The Spirit then compelled Jesus to go into the wilderness,
Mar 1:13 where He was tempted by Satan for forty days. He was out among the wild animals, and angels took care of Him.
Mar 4:15 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message, only to have Satan come at once and take it away.
Luk 10:17 When the seventy-two disciples returned, they joyfully reported to Him, "Lord, even the demons obey us when we use Your name!"
Luk 10:18 "Yes," He told them, "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
Luk 10:19 Look, I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy, and you can walk among snakes and scorpions and crush them. Nothing will injure you.
Luk 10:20 But don't rejoice because evil spirits obey you; rejoice because your names are registered in heaven."
Luk 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve disciples,
Luk 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat.
Luk 22:32 But I have pleaded in prayer for you, Simon, that your faith should not fail. So when you have repented and turned to Me again, strengthen your brothers."
Joh 12:31 The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.
Joh 13:27 When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you're going to do."
2Co 2:10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ's authority for your benefit,
2Co 2:11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.
2Co 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
2Co 11:13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
1Th 2:18 We wanted very much to come to you, and I, Paul, tried again and again, but Satan prevented us.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.
1Ti 5:15 For I am afraid that some of them have already gone astray and now follow Satan.
Rev 2:10 Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 12:7 Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.
Rev 12:8 And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven.
Rev 12:9 This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.
Rev 20:8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore.
Rev 20:9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
Rev 20:10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/12/2011 02:40 |
"There is a lot written about Satan in both old and new Testaments."
In the Old Testament? Not really.
All but two of the verses you cite are in the first two chapters of Job,
and in that story Satan (literally "the satan") is depicted as a member of God's court
and serves as an accuser (the literal meaning of "satan"), not of God but of Job.
This is the role Satan plays in the 2 verses in Zechariah as well.
As for evil being a "concept,"
I'm really not saying that.
A concept suggests an idea,
and evil is more than an idea.
The Holocaust was certainly more than a concept.
Slavery was more than a concept.
Genocide is more than a concept.
These are horrible realities,
these are undeniably evils.
But these evils were brought about by sinful human beings,
using their free will to serve their own purposes.
We can't blame them on a supernatural being,
even if such a being does exist.
As for Jesus being tempted by a concept,
that really misses my point as well.
In the wilderness, as Jesus prepared to begin his ministry,
he was tempted to see his mission as something other than what it was
and to fulfill his mission in ways that would not have been faithful or effective -
ministering simply to people's physical needs (bread),
seeking to gain authority over the kingdoms of the world by using worldly means,
and seeking to advance his cause through spectacular displays.
These were very real temptations, which had to be faced and overcome.
I don't pretend to be all knowing or to have all the answers,
and I respect the rights of others to hold their own views.
But for me, Satan is best seen, not as a literal supernatural being,
but as a symbol of the evil we ourselves create when we seek to make ourselves equal to God
(which is precisely no more and no less what the "Satan" character is described as doing.)
I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with Pogo's assessment of the human condition -
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"
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Ted C
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03/12/2011 02:47 |
Lanny, are you a supernatural being?
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